Wing Chun Kung Fu.....waste of time and $

[mike]

chris davis,


even after reading all these posts I still cant help but feel you are sneering at MT. and this

Maybe it is that type of 'closed' superfitial opinion that is the problem! Ok so a MT fighter will be a good fighter prior to lets say a Tai Chi Fighter, but the end result will not be the same! How many MT fighters get better and better and better every 10 years and on into very old age - Not many!! Tai Chi is renound for this and is widely regarded in the east as one of its most deadly combat methods

sure seems like a load of crap to me. you always here about tai chi being the best art but who ever won a nhb tournament with it? who the hell is scared of david carridine?


thanks,

mike

[chris davis 200]

mike,

even after reading all these posts I still cant help but feel you are sneering at MT. and this

Re - read them then!!!!!!!

I agree with the Latter part of this post and do have a large respect for MT as a national sport and a tradition

I have respect for many of the MT fighters that i have read about and seen

and by the way David carridine is an ACTOR and does not represent Tai Chi in any way or form - the majority of his books are fictional in content and he knows very,very,very little!!!!!!!!!

Also could it be that NHB competition is not the be all and end all of fighting ability? Maybe it is a good way to prove you have ability but some people practice the martial arts for reasons other than to jump in the ring to prove themselves. Some martial artists are not as COMBAT driven.

In 1928, China held the first modern eastern martial arts tournament. Liu Hung Chieh was the representative of the Beijing school at this tournament. Except for strikes to the groin, eyes, and throat, everything was legal. The tournament was especially brutal and had to be called off after a day or two. There was so much violence that, midway through the tournament, the winners were decided by vote. The decision went to the Hsing-i school due to the huge damage that they where causing to all external stylists. The Ba gua people where not as willing to inflict such brutality although they never lost a bout.

Here is a quote from BK franztis' book - power of the internal martial arts that outlines the very first tournament held in china to invite non chinese styles - many Japanese styles attended as well as indonesian i am not sure about Thai. I have looked into this account and it is indeed the case that a hsing i school won. This is an internal style like Tai chi - this is a no holds barred tournament - Like UFC and Hsing I won.

sure seems like a load of crap to me. you always here about tai chi being the best art but who ever won a nhb tournament with it?

That is an account of an internal style winning a NHB event. Look into thigs before you declare them 'a load of crap'! and dont put too much trust in the abilities of ACTORS!

Thanks anyway!

Chris

We have all heard the wonderful claims about Hsing I and Tai Chi. But not many people have actually seen them in action, beyond occasional demonstrations against the "Master's" own (and conveniently compliant) students, in very controlled conditions.

But we have all seen Thai Boxers kick and punch people to pieces, and Brazillian Jiu Jitsu stranlge and arm lock people into submissions. And these were against highly trained and fully resisting opponents.

You do not have to be a genius to see what REAL evidence says, rather than the anecdotal and unproven claims of the mystical internal stylists.

I do think I have an open mind, but I need some evidence. Anyway, look at other physical endeavours. Where is the Chi master, channeling his energies into winning at Tennis? Or Football? Nowhere. And it is not because such activities are beneath them. It is because they can't make mystical claims about things like this, as all will be revealed on the field of play. With fighting styles they can always politely refuse, for fear of hurting their poor opponent.

I put such mysticism in the saem pigeon hole as talking to the dead, abduction by aliens and the Loch Ness monster. Bollocks.

[chris davis 200]

We have all heard the wonderful claims about Hsing I and Tai Chi. But not many people have actually seen them in action, beyond occasional demonstrations against the "Master's" own (and conveniently compliant) students, in very controlled conditions.

Check out the BK Franztis 'Yang Tai Chi Fighting' video. in it he take numerous unrehersed attackes from 2 Teakwondo instructors simultaniously. These are not complient students, they are embarised teachers! He is also renound for taking on all comers from any style that wished to attempt it. He has demonstrated at numerous championships and has never refused a challange. Although getting on a bit now and more grounded in health methods, he more than proved himself to everyone that tryed it on.

If you go to the Ba Gua section of his website and click on fighting you will find a demonstration against the winner of a Tai Chi tournement, the man that won was also a 'kick boxing stylist' and didnt use tai chi to attack.

http://www.energyarts.com/hires/indexed.html

I do think I have an open mind, but I need some evidence. Anyway, look at other physical endeavours. Where is the Chi master, channeling his energies into winning at Tennis? Or Football? Nowhere. And it is not because such activities are beneath them. It is because they can't make mystical claims about things like this, as all will be revealed on the field of play. With fighting styles they can always politely refuse, for fear of hurting their poor opponent.

I totally agree! - most of the people that i have spoke to regarding Tai Chi or internal arts are very much grounded in the real world, when you say tai chi people automatically assume that you are taking about a magical Chi energy to throw an opponent across the room! I am not. When i practiced tai chi Chuan and Hsing I everything was explained in terms of body mechanics and body movement.

It are these body movements and alignments that are taught to many close protection officers so that they are swiftly able to deal with classical punching and grabing attacks. Nothing to do with Chi nothing to do with Magic! I have never stated that it is.

I put such mysticism in the saem pigeon hole as talking to the dead, abduction by aliens and the Loch Ness monster. Bollocks.

As do I - glad we agree!

Chris

[Blindman]

One needs to distill the "moves" from the "concepts". Although various wing chun movements are not "practical" in the MMA arena the concepts apply. Centerline theory, economy of motion, etc. all play an important role in both stand up and ground work. Of course no one will Chi Sao with you in the ring or on the street but the concepts learned from wing chun are invaluable in supplementing your other arts if you have an open mind and are fortunate enough to have an instructor that shows not only moves but concepts and their applications to other arts/scenarios. And as far as conditioning goes - try doing gates rounds where you can only defend with gates and return battle punches while the feeder can attack you any way he likes. Conditioning is just as good as Thai rounds (which we all love to do!). All in all - have an open mind - and use what works for you but please don't knock what doesn't as it may work for someone else. Besides - someone's motivation for training in a given art may be something completely different than "what makes them a good fighter".

Respects,
Blindman

[terry]

Most Thai fighters do not continue to practice Muay Thai seriously when they retire any more than retired professional football players practice football seriously. There are some that become trainers, and many of these people train into their 80s. Some of these guys are living treasures and you can learn a lot from them. Let me give you a couple of examples:

Ajarn Apideh Sit Hurin: 350+ fights, former Thai champion, known as the Muhamed Ali of Muay Thai, Head trainer at Fairtex, Thailand. He is in his mid 60s and trains and advises students on a daily basis. I have done len chen (light timing) sparring with him and can tell you that his timing is incredible.

Songserm Sudangnoi: Former Rajdamnern middleweight Champion from 1964-1966. Now approaching 70, he teaches out of his backyard. He has a MMA spirit too, and regularly mixes things from outside Muay Thai into his combinations. Here's a guy that has never heard of Wing Chun throwing finger jabs in the middle of his elbow combinations, cutting into the tool as if he has been doing it all his life. Most experience guys won't escape his plumb.

Col. Nattapong: High ranking Krabi-Krabong practitioner, senior military officer and trainer for the queen of Thailand, Col. Nattapong does demanding aerobic workouts in his mid-60s.

All of these guys maintain a high level of fitness and combat readiness. In addition, one thing that all these men have in common is that I have never heard an unkind word from them regarding any other martial art. They don't need to put anybody else down in order to represent themselves and their arts in a positive light.

Regards,

Terry Tippie

[jesse7]

All of these guys maintain a high level of fitness and combat readiness. In addition, one thing that all these men have in common is that I have never heard an unkind word from them regarding any other martial art. They don't need to put anybody else down in order to represent themselves and their arts in a positive light.

This is something .. some of the other posters here should adopt.

[chris davis 200]

Most Thai fighters do not continue to practice Muay Thai seriously when they retire any more than retired professional football players practice football seriously. There are some that become trainers, and many of these people train into their 80s. Some of these guys are living treasures and you can learn a lot from them. Let me give you a couple of examples:

Thankyou for the examples, very informative and interesting.

I think that my point was more regarding the difference of still training with age and getting more and more efficient at the art with age.

thankyou for the excellent examples!

In addition, one thing that all these men have in common is that I have never heard an unkind word from them regarding any other martial art. They don't need to put anybody else down in order to represent themselves and their arts in a positive light.

A thoughroughly comendable and representative view of the majority of real 'masters'. I myself feel the same, but kinda got sucked in by the closed view of the origional post.

I think that is the view of mosit MA people i have met in general that have trained in their art for sometime. the desire to prove something has gone and they are now content with their abilities and what MA has brought to their life.

Thankyou for such an informative and mature post.

Chris

"When i practiced tai chi Chuan and Hsing I everything was explained in terms of body mechanics and body movement."

I'm glad to hear it. I will research the people you mentioned.

[Szczepankiewicz]

It won't help you old man, I'm still going to take you out!!!!




SZ

[William]

Chris wrote:

My aim is not to disperidge MT in the slightest, i am just saying that it is
not the answer to all situations, it is not necisarilly the ultimat striking
combat art and has some weaknesses.



I am not saying it's invincible. Just that there is more hard evidence
(IMHO) which
backs up it's effectiveness.

As for the first part of this quote? are you serious?? i have never seen an
Old MT fighter ever. I have however seen wing chun (ip man) Tai Chi -
millions!!!! (chen man ching, wang shu jin, liu hung chieh to name but a
very very few) Ba Gua (all of the above and many many more) and hsing I
still very capable fighters into the age of 80.





To clear up my point here. By "more fighters", I mean with actual fighting
experience.There are about 60,000 full-time boxers in Thailand and most of
these fighters have over a hundred fights or more (some
much more) worth of experience (not to mention the training/sparring time to
prep for the fights). And add to that the retired fighters who no longer step
into the ring but may still train in some capacity. As compared to the
millions who practice TC forms in the park
every morning. How many of these folks have had actual TC fights to test
it's effectiveness on a regular basis? Not as many that I am aware of.

As i have said, i do not wish to start a 'which style is better' type arguement

Agreed, in the end, it will get us no where.

I have respect for many of the MT fighters that i have read about and seen,
but in my personal experience i have never found it 'that' useful, i have
found openings and exploited them, i have fought MT and won, this may be
down to my fighting style or to the people i have fought.



The same for me compared to the other arts I've gone up against.

What i personnally believe though is that to become a profitient fighter does not mean that you need to mix martial arts



It's not absolutely necessary, but many folks find it to be highly
effective.

, i do not believe that training a bit here and there will give you what you need

I do agree that there are some people who spend too little time in a single art and jump around too much.

To understand a MA you need to commit yourself to it fully, when you believe that you understand its principles and techniques deeply and fully then you
can move on.



Well said. In the end, it's probably best to agree to disagree. I don't think that we are going to change each others minds but you've brought up some good points.

William




It's a 'Mr. Death' or something. He's come about the reaping? I
don't think we need any at the moment.

[shredder]

Originally posted by sakuraba fan
Unless of course you have no physical skills and couldn't knock a man out if you hit him with a bat across the chin, then perhaps golf or basketball are sports you should take up..

Spoken like someone who knows very little about sports.

Originally posted by Szczepankiewicz
It won't help you old man, I'm still going to take you out!!!!




SZ

That's nice, big boy. Where y'all gonna take me?

[Troll Virus]

Been a while since I was on here, but you boys are being bad again.

Fully taking on board Bri Thai's comments on board about a purely Wing Chun person being effective, I'd agree that's a fantasy, but it is an excellent system. Like every other art, the majority of people teaching it are dabblers, but there are some very good people out there.

The same question could be asked about Boring Jew Jitsu. If you train with someone average in that, and you know nothing about the striking arts, you match up to someone good, or just plain mean, and you go home in a bag.

Don't slag a system unless you actually do know something about it, as opposed to having played at it.

As you'll have guessed, I'm into Wing Chun, and yes I have solid grounding in other things. The reason I'm training WC now, is that I have found someone really good to learn from.

Behave

[William]

I need to make a correction to something I posted earlier.

I wrote:

Now to the UFC. Only one person ever competed in
the UFC claiming to be a WC player. He was knocked out cold in three seconds
by a knee to the head...

I was watching UFC Hits Vol. 1: "The Best Battles In UFC History" last night
(after great heavy bag & footwork training). There was a match in UFC 3
where one fighter, Asbel Cancio fought as a Ving Tsun Gung Fu fighter
against Dave Beneteau. Cancio was taken to the ground in about 3-4 seconds.
Beneteau took a few more seconds to get position and then ground pounded
Cancio into submission at 16 seconds. Unfortunately the ref didn't see the
tap out immediately and Cancio took a hellacious beating before it was
stopped. The Kerr-Stot fight was also on this video, he actually lasted more
like 9-10 seconds. Not the three I posted before.
I'm not posting this as a dig. I just want to make sure I am correct in my
statements.

Respectfully,

William