Jujitsu vs. Bujinkan Taijutsu/ninjutsu - Page 4

greekmai · 11-22-2002, 01:43 PM

lol! I am glad your both like my gif!

I get

on a daily basis and have been training for 3 years and would not want to try another art or another organization!
Budo Taijutsu and Bujinkan are for me!!

I do yoga and chi kung , but do not confuse internal arts with budo training!They both have their place!

Szczepankiewicz · 11-22-2002, 03:01 PM

Details...we need details.

ryanhall · 11-22-2002, 04:01 PM

greekmai,
correct me if i'm wrong (and i am pretty sure i'm not), but ninjas were not warriors in the traditional sense of the term. they were the spies/assassins of their day, and they were very good at what they did. they were skilled at not being seen, rather than straight up fighting. samurai would worry about them not because of their incredible fighting skill, but because they would kill a victim without the victim knowing about it (read oss operatives in ww II). i get the feeling that taijutsu was invented later and somehow attached to the ninja. ninja didn't fight their enemies, they assassinated them or ran from them. too many movies speak to the contrary.

Quote:

The techniques seemed a bit lame - although this may have been the teacher.

i think someone teaching "the art of the ninja" (if he really knew what he claimed to know) would be out of his element trying to teach one on one fighting or street self defense. the "ninja" way would be to run or stab the bg when he's not looking.

Quote:

Maybe he needs to come up with his own ideas and katas before he calls himself **soke** and creates a new art!

another idea about taijutsu being invented later: i highly doubt that the ninja would have practiced katas, as they don't even have any application in open fighting, much less a rapidly changing environment. when one has to be free thinking and mentally quick, katas and set patterns are totally unapplicable. just some food for thought.

any opinions?

by the way: the bottom of your posts are...mes...mer...iz...ing. bouncing...bouncing...

ryan

greekmai · 11-22-2002, 11:20 PM

OK. Obviously no one on this board has an idea about Ninjutsu aka Budo Taijutsu....just a new added name to the art by Dr. Hatsumi.

Not all ninjas were assasins and yes they were great warriors!
We train in the classical arts and we also use traditional and modern weapons.

We do not train to strike like cowards from the back. Our art has effective kicks, punches, locks, throws, ground fighting and ofcourse we train with traditional weapons like katana and modern weapons like knife, gun, rope, hanbo.

Our art is a realistic street self defense!

Before I go any further, maybe some of you need to check out some books written by Dr. Hatsumi besides quoting me the crap that Glen Morris writes!

Thats for all now, maybe you guys just want to get a rise out of me....so until some of you decide to educate yourselves on this art I think I will get on some more serious discussion boards.

ryanhall · 11-23-2002, 01:01 PM

i don't want to start a flame war, but an art is not realistic street self defense unless it covers both the mental and physical aspects of combat. the mental is far more important to your survival out of the dojo/kwoon/ring/whatever.

Quote:

Not all ninjas were assasins and yes they were great warriors!

i'm sure that the ninjas were capable fighters, but they WERE assassins and spies. there were not enough of them to be anything else. that's why they lived away from the population centers/samurai.

Quote:

We do not train to strike like cowards from the back. Our art has effective kicks, punches, locks, throws, ground fighting and ofcourse we train with traditional weapons like katana and modern weapons like knife, gun, rope, hanbo.

would it also be cowardly to strike first? or does that violate the budo code? why would someone looking for realistic self defense waste time training with a katana or a rope. who carries a katana? or a rope? all i need to know about a rope is that putting it around someone's neck doesn't make them feel good.

Quote:

Thats for all now, maybe you guys just want to get a rise out of me....so until some of you decide to educate yourselves on this art I think I will get on some more serious discussion boards.

i am not trying to get a rise out of you. sorry if you misconstrued my intent. i am just trying to present relevant points. i have educated myself on the art. by more serious boards do you mean those where everyone agrees with you?

wondering about closed minded people...
ryan

robertlee · 11-23-2002, 09:20 PM

I have understood over the years . That the ninja were a family class of people. They trained in the family art and stealth was just a part of that training. They were of what some wold call a poorer class. A nd the weapons were less then that of the bushi. It was said that the preist of the empior Thuoght they were with power and wanted to know more of there skills. They merely became known as assasionns as they hired out there skills and fought for survival. A part of the whole is just a part. The ninja has been has had many stories told about the myth. But that keeps the mystery alive . Some of what they train in will work some wont. What the person wants from it is there choice. I do not train in it but will listen to understand .

greekmai · 11-23-2002, 10:12 PM

I've had some time to cool off my tantrum and here is some useful information about Ninjutsu/Taijutsu.

Many ninja were also samurai. A famous ninja who was a high ranking samurai was HATTORI HANZO MASASHIGE (1541-1596). He was the son of HATTORI NAZO YASUNAGA, who through heritage was a vassal to the TOKUGAWA family, in this period TOKUGAWA was known as MATSUDAIRA. They belonged to the KAMIHATTORI family line, if they came from the HEITARO or CHIGACHI's family line is unknown.

HATTORI HANZO was practically raised with martial arts as his main occupation in life. In 1557 when HATTORI HANZO was sixteen years old he was in a battle for the first time in his life. It was a night when TOKUGAWA IEYASU attacked UZICHIJO in MIGAWA (the castle in UDO). He got his first reward because of his remarkable fighting skills in the battlefield. He got the nickname "Hanzo the ghost", and even TOKUGAWA recognized his skills. After that he was involved in the battle of ANAGAWA in 1570, and the battle at MIKATA GA HARA in 1572. Another nickname he got because of his skills was "Hanzo the devil".

HATTORI HANZO's many merits gave him big recognition and he was awarded the command over the HASSENSHI SAMURAI's. HATTORI HANZO died in battle the 4'th of december in 1596 when he had the command over a troop that would terrorize NINJA's from FUMA RYU in KANAGAWA. HANZO and his troops had followed the FUMA RYU NINJA's out on the sea in boats, but the FUMA NINJA's used underwater techniques to destroy the rudder on their boats. And when HANZO and his men jumped into the water to swim ashore the FUMA NINJA's had filled oil into the water and sat it on fire, they all died in the flames. Hanzo was succeded by his son, Masanari, who would be given the title Iwami-no-Kami and whose men would act as the guards of Edo (Tokyo) Castle.

The population in Japan still sings about HANZO in the areas around KAWAUCHI, he was also known as "The great lancer", a very strong warrior. It is not many that realize his connection to NINJUTSU, he was more known as a BUSHI (a SAMURAI) from IGA.

Hanzo was succeded by his son, Masanari, who would be given the title Iwami-no-Kami and whose men would act as the guards of Edo (Tokyo) Castle. Hanzo's reputation as a ninja leader who commanded a 200-man strong unit of Iga men has grown to legendary proportions.
He was so well regarded by the Imperial family that they named the gate that they guarded as Hanzomon or Hanzos gate.
There is a subway line named after the gate Honzomon line.

As a conclusion on the HATTORI family clan, can be mentioned that ISHITANI MATSUTARO TAKAKAGE had an ancestor that was a CHUNIN (middleman) in HATTORI HANZO's NINJA clan. ISHITANI MATSUTARO TAKAKAGE was TAKAMATSU TOSHITSUGU's SENSEI, and TAKAMATSU TOSHITSUGU was the SENSEI to MASAAKI HATSUMI the 28'th SOKE in KUKISHINDEN RYU HAPPO HIKENJUTSU. ISHITANI died in the lapse of TAKAMATSU in the early 20'th century, TAKAMATSU died in 1972. HATSUMI is still alive and well as you probably already know.

As for the remark why would you use a katana?
I was just letting you know that we train with traditional and modern weapons. Training with traditional weapons help with timing & distance and they could be applied to any weapons of that length.
Most of our time we train unarmed.
Yes lineage does not prove practicality but its up to us modern students to make sure our art stays practical.

Hope this helps a little....

PS: A video clip on ninjutsu forms/katas
http://www.bkronline.org/videos.php

robertlee · 11-24-2002, 06:07 PM

good history on you art. I think you must find it an interesting style to keep the history intact. Keep up your faith in it and thats what will matter later. Do Mo ARIGATO.

ryanhall · 11-24-2002, 09:29 PM

i agree. seems like you know a lot. keep it up.

ryan

Szczepankiewicz · 11-25-2002, 02:41 PM

Greekmai,

You have posted some good history about the ninja. Now, will you ever actually get around to answering my question?

What are the differences between Bujinkan and Hoshinjitsu.

That's funny that you say 'quoting me the crap that Glen Morris writes!' I am by no means a ninja lover and I sure as hell don't believe everything I read, whether Doc wrote it or not. Where are your books? I'd like to read up....

'so until some of you decide to educate yourselves on this art I think I will get on some more serious discussion boards'

I have repeatedly asked you to educate us as you declare yourself the resident expert on Bujinkan and Hoshinjitsu. Why must WE seek out the information to support YOUR arguments?

Feel free to go to any and all discussion forums you like. Try out www.selfdefenseforums.com and trumpet your call loudly! I promise simply to sit back and watch......

Szczepankiewicz the Uneducated.

greekmai · 11-25-2002, 09:04 PM

Hoshinjutsu is mostly energy building, and you do not learn to build your energy while training in the Bujinkan.

Glen Morris mixes yoga and chi kung into his classes so its very different than the way we train in the Bujinkan.

He also tries to explain the ryuha (traditions) in taoist terms which Dr. Hatsumi has never discussed!

In **Path notes of an American Ninja master ** book he discusses masturbating infront of the television and watching his energy rising! now thats not taught in the Bujinkan!

So if you are looking for the metaphysical mumbo jumbo then maybe Glen Morris is for you! If you are looking for serious training then you should look up the Bujinkan.

robertlee · 11-25-2002, 10:11 PM

What are some of your training drills? As this might answer some of the question differances people are asking. I see you have stated your art remains more pure . Thats ok theres a differance right there. I see you have studied for three years. AS a few more years go by you may at least consider exposer to other arts . Will help to expand your base. And see better ways to use what you have. Exposer makes use better. Good luck.

greekmai · 11-26-2002, 03:32 PM

We practice throw and throw counters. We put on boxing gloves and practice limb destructions.

I do cross train with functional jkd but I am not interested in hoshinjutsu.

Szczepankiewicz · 11-26-2002, 03:52 PM

I find it hard to believe that someone would NOT be interested in masturbating in front of the television!!!!!?????

Finally, a straight answer!

Very good points, even if it did take you a week to make them

Spanky TV

jesse7 · 11-26-2002, 04:02 PM

I prefer animated Gif's.

11-22-2002, 01:43 PM	#46 (permalink)
greekmai Novice Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 68 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	lol! I am glad your both like my gif! I get on a daily basis and have been training for 3 years and would not want to try another art or another organization! Budo Taijutsu and Bujinkan are for me!! I do yoga and chi kung , but do not confuse internal arts with budo training!They both have their place! __________________ Kikeba yoi! Whatever works Greekmai

11-22-2002, 11:20 PM	#49 (permalink)
greekmai Novice Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 68 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	OK. Obviously no one on this board has an idea about Ninjutsu aka Budo Taijutsu....just a new added name to the art by Dr. Hatsumi. Not all ninjas were assasins and yes they were great warriors! We train in the classical arts and we also use traditional and modern weapons. We do not train to strike like cowards from the back. Our art has effective kicks, punches, locks, throws, ground fighting and ofcourse we train with traditional weapons like katana and modern weapons like knife, gun, rope, hanbo. Our art is a realistic street self defense! Before I go any further, maybe some of you need to check out some books written by Dr. Hatsumi besides quoting me the crap that Glen Morris writes! Thats for all now, maybe you guys just want to get a rise out of me....so until some of you decide to educate yourselves on this art I think I will get on some more serious discussion boards. __________________ Kikeba yoi! Whatever works Greekmai

11-23-2002, 09:20 PM	#51 (permalink)
robertlee Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 231 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have understood over the years . That the ninja were a family class of people. They trained in the family art and stealth was just a part of that training. They were of what some wold call a poorer class. A nd the weapons were less then that of the bushi. It was said that the preist of the empior Thuoght they were with power and wanted to know more of there skills. They merely became known as assasionns as they hired out there skills and fought for survival. A part of the whole is just a part. The ninja has been has had many stories told about the myth. But that keeps the mystery alive . Some of what they train in will work some wont. What the person wants from it is there choice. I do not train in it but will listen to understand . __________________ r.lee

11-23-2002, 10:12 PM	#52 (permalink)
greekmai Novice Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 68 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ninjutsu I've had some time to cool off my tantrum and here is some useful information about Ninjutsu/Taijutsu. Many ninja were also samurai. A famous ninja who was a high ranking samurai was HATTORI HANZO MASASHIGE (1541-1596). He was the son of HATTORI NAZO YASUNAGA, who through heritage was a vassal to the TOKUGAWA family, in this period TOKUGAWA was known as MATSUDAIRA. They belonged to the KAMIHATTORI family line, if they came from the HEITARO or CHIGACHI's family line is unknown. HATTORI HANZO was practically raised with martial arts as his main occupation in life. In 1557 when HATTORI HANZO was sixteen years old he was in a battle for the first time in his life. It was a night when TOKUGAWA IEYASU attacked UZICHIJO in MIGAWA (the castle in UDO). He got his first reward because of his remarkable fighting skills in the battlefield. He got the nickname "Hanzo the ghost", and even TOKUGAWA recognized his skills. After that he was involved in the battle of ANAGAWA in 1570, and the battle at MIKATA GA HARA in 1572. Another nickname he got because of his skills was "Hanzo the devil". HATTORI HANZO's many merits gave him big recognition and he was awarded the command over the HASSENSHI SAMURAI's. HATTORI HANZO died in battle the 4'th of december in 1596 when he had the command over a troop that would terrorize NINJA's from FUMA RYU in KANAGAWA. HANZO and his troops had followed the FUMA RYU NINJA's out on the sea in boats, but the FUMA NINJA's used underwater techniques to destroy the rudder on their boats. And when HANZO and his men jumped into the water to swim ashore the FUMA NINJA's had filled oil into the water and sat it on fire, they all died in the flames. Hanzo was succeded by his son, Masanari, who would be given the title Iwami-no-Kami and whose men would act as the guards of Edo (Tokyo) Castle. The population in Japan still sings about HANZO in the areas around KAWAUCHI, he was also known as "The great lancer", a very strong warrior. It is not many that realize his connection to NINJUTSU, he was more known as a BUSHI (a SAMURAI) from IGA. Hanzo was succeded by his son, Masanari, who would be given the title Iwami-no-Kami and whose men would act as the guards of Edo (Tokyo) Castle. Hanzo's reputation as a ninja leader who commanded a 200-man strong unit of Iga men has grown to legendary proportions. He was so well regarded by the Imperial family that they named the gate that they guarded as Hanzomon or Hanzos gate. There is a subway line named after the gate Honzomon line. As a conclusion on the HATTORI family clan, can be mentioned that ISHITANI MATSUTARO TAKAKAGE had an ancestor that was a CHUNIN (middleman) in HATTORI HANZO's NINJA clan. ISHITANI MATSUTARO TAKAKAGE was TAKAMATSU TOSHITSUGU's SENSEI, and TAKAMATSU TOSHITSUGU was the SENSEI to MASAAKI HATSUMI the 28'th SOKE in KUKISHINDEN RYU HAPPO HIKENJUTSU. ISHITANI died in the lapse of TAKAMATSU in the early 20'th century, TAKAMATSU died in 1972. HATSUMI is still alive and well as you probably already know. As for the remark why would you use a katana? I was just letting you know that we train with traditional and modern weapons. Training with traditional weapons help with timing & distance and they could be applied to any weapons of that length. Most of our time we train unarmed. Yes lineage does not prove practicality but its up to us modern students to make sure our art stays practical. Hope this helps a little.... PS: A video clip on ninjutsu forms/katas http://www.bkronline.org/videos.php __________________ Kikeba yoi! Whatever works Greekmai Last edited by greekmai; 11-23-2002 at 10:37 PM.

11-24-2002, 06:07 PM	#53 (permalink)
robertlee Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 231 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	good history on you art. I think you must find it an interesting style to keep the history intact. Keep up your faith in it and thats what will matter later. Do Mo ARIGATO. __________________ r.lee

11-22-2002, 03:01 PM	#47 (permalink)
Szczepankiewicz Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Meridian, ID, USA Posts: 4,109 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Details...we need details.

11-24-2002, 09:29 PM	#54 (permalink)
ryanhall Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 1,247 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	i agree. seems like you know a lot. keep it up. ryan

11-25-2002, 02:41 PM	#55 (permalink)
Szczepankiewicz Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Meridian, ID, USA Posts: 4,109 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Greekmai, You have posted some good history about the ninja. Now, will you ever actually get around to answering my question? What are the differences between Bujinkan and Hoshinjitsu. That's funny that you say 'quoting me the crap that Glen Morris writes!' I am by no means a ninja lover and I sure as hell don't believe everything I read, whether Doc wrote it or not. Where are your books? I'd like to read up.... 'so until some of you decide to educate yourselves on this art I think I will get on some more serious discussion boards' I have repeatedly asked you to educate us as you declare yourself the resident expert on Bujinkan and Hoshinjitsu. Why must WE seek out the information to support YOUR arguments? Feel free to go to any and all discussion forums you like. Try out www.selfdefenseforums.com and trumpet your call loudly! I promise simply to sit back and watch...... Szczepankiewicz the Uneducated.

11-25-2002, 09:04 PM	#56 (permalink)
greekmai Novice Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 68 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hoshinjutsu is mostly energy building, and you do not learn to build your energy while training in the Bujinkan. Glen Morris mixes yoga and chi kung into his classes so its very different than the way we train in the Bujinkan. He also tries to explain the ryuha (traditions) in taoist terms which Dr. Hatsumi has never discussed! In Path notes of an American Ninja master book he discusses masturbating infront of the television and watching his energy rising! now thats not taught in the Bujinkan! So if you are looking for the metaphysical mumbo jumbo then maybe Glen Morris is for you! If you are looking for serious training then you should look up the Bujinkan. __________________ Kikeba yoi! Whatever works Greekmai Last edited by greekmai; 11-25-2002 at 09:09 PM.

11-25-2002, 10:11 PM	#57 (permalink)
robertlee Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 231 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	What are some of your training drills? As this might answer some of the question differances people are asking. I see you have stated your art remains more pure . Thats ok theres a differance right there. I see you have studied for three years. AS a few more years go by you may at least consider exposer to other arts . Will help to expand your base. And see better ways to use what you have. Exposer makes use better. Good luck. __________________ r.lee

11-26-2002, 03:32 PM	#58 (permalink)
greekmai Novice Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 68 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	We practice throw and throw counters. We put on boxing gloves and practice limb destructions. I do cross train with functional jkd but I am not interested in hoshinjutsu. __________________ Kikeba yoi! Whatever works Greekmai Last edited by greekmai; 11-26-2002 at 03:35 PM.

11-26-2002, 03:52 PM	#59 (permalink)
Szczepankiewicz Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Meridian, ID, USA Posts: 4,109 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	I find it hard to believe that someone would NOT be interested in masturbating in front of the television!!!!!????? Finally, a straight answer! Very good points, even if it did take you a week to make them Spanky TV

11-26-2002, 04:02 PM	#60 (permalink)
jesse7 Novice Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Hamilton New Zealand Posts: 141 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	I prefer animated Gif's.

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