Jujitsu vs. Bujinkan Taijutsu/ninjutsu

David Hume · 11-18-2002, 08:13 PM

Hello I'm considering a traditional Japanese Jujitsu dojo (not Gracie style stuff) and Bujinkan Taijutsu/Ninjutsu.

I'll be sure to visit each dojo of course, and I'm learning about each style on the web, but what can anyone else offer for suggestions? Any advice would be greatly appreciated, especially if you've practiced either martial art.

Thank you

David Hume

Szczepankiewicz · 11-18-2002, 09:17 PM

Well Dave,

Why are you wanting to get into martial arts?

Self-defense?

Sport?

Exercise?

Meditation?

I need more information if'n I'm gonna give expert advice.....

Spanky

David Hume · 11-18-2002, 09:36 PM

Spanky,

I earned a black belt in Tae Kwon Do when I was around 13 or 14, and I got burned out (and discovered girls and a motorcycle). In college I studied Jujitsu for a semester, Aikido for a semester (same semester), and had about 2 months of Iaido. I was too busy to attend more than one session per week and had to move soon anyway so I had to drop out. My life is more stable now, with more free time to commit to such things.

Since college I've thought about returning to TKD or starting another MA because it was a lot of fun, decent exercise, relaxing, challenging, and nice to know it had some potential practical benefit in self-defense situations. For all of those reasons I want to study a MA once again. The only preference besides those factors is an increased awareness of the practical, self-defense component - I want to learn something that can realistically work if I ever had to defend myself. I honestly don't think what I learned in TKD would do me much good against an aggressive, sober, and armed attacker. I have similar reservations towards Aikido.

Does this information help?

-David Hume

crazyjoe380 · 11-19-2002, 01:56 AM

Let me ask u...

Have u ever used tkd in a fight or to defend urself?
be honest too .. did u get your ass kicked or did u win the fight?
or have u not been challenged to any degree of violence??????

break it down. if u did, what made tkd fail or work..

Let the don know

chris davis 200 · 11-19-2002, 07:26 AM

I have trained in Bujinkan and TJJ.

Which one you go to is very much based on the teachers in your area and what their background is.

My advice is look into the teacher/school more than the art. You get good Ninjustsu/TJJ teachers and bad ones!

IMO TJJ is more effective for me than Ninjutsu. I work as a doorman and never found much in Ninjutsu too effective in comparison to TJJ - it lacks depth of knowledge IMPO.

Quote:

I want to learn something that can realistically work if I ever had to defend myself.

I can Personally confirm that TJJ works. BJJ is something to steer clear of if you are talking street defence.

Mainly because the last place you want to be is grappling on the ground, people around will take your head off! Seen it happen many many times! Look at crazy's little animation thing - that is a bad - bad position to be in on the street.

Most TJJ schools teach you how to throw without having to hit the deck. also they teach fast releases so that you can get back to your feet quickly.

Yoshinkan aikido is quite similar to Traditional JuJutsu, this may be an option?

Personal preference though.

hope this helps,

cheers
Chris

David Hume · 11-19-2002, 09:25 AM

Actually no, I never used TKD to defend myself. I never had to.
If I had, it would depend on the fight. If it's one on one and the guy tried to pull me to the ground then I would have been beaten to a pulp. Come on, he's supposed to stay 3 feet away from me and bounce up and down like we did in Tae Kwon Do sparring.

I'm really "thrown" by the comments above regarding Traditional Jujitsu. I had thought the Bujinkan Taijitsu stuff would be more practical - the practice against knife attackers, handguns, and teach you how to defend yourself with a knife also (of legal size). Check out their URL: www.tacticalselfdefense.com I'm just concerned they might be nuts.

Anyone else have advice?

chris davis 200 · 11-19-2002, 09:33 AM

Quote:

I'm really "thrown" by the comments above regarding Traditional Jujitsu. I had thought the Bujinkan Taijitsu stuff would be more practical - the practice against knife attackers, handguns, and teach you how to defend yourself with a knife also (of legal size).

Why dont you think Traditional JuJutsu would teach these things?? maybe not the Gun thing but DEFINATLEY against knike attacks as well as Mutliple attackers, sword attackes, staff attackes, stick/ club attacks, virtually any weapon!

Bujinkan has a lot of Coyboys in it and alot of people doing weapon defence that have no idea what they are doing! (so do most arts to be fair) I have seem and practiced the Gun defences taught at Bujinkan but they really do not stand up to much. The principles used in TJJ can be aplied to many situations including Gun defence. (watch a Segal movie - he does Aikido!) I know that is the movies but you can see the real power in his techniques and can judge their effectivness.

Will check these guys out and get back to you.

Cheers,
Chris

chris davis 200 · 11-19-2002, 09:39 AM

To be honest these guys look to be quite good.

If they are nuts it should be quite obvious.

What TJJ school were you concidering?

Cheers
Chris

Szczepankiewicz · 11-19-2002, 10:06 AM

I'm sorry Chris, but 'I know that is the movies but you can see the real power in his techniques and can judge their effectivness. '

Anything you see in the movies doesn't prove a damn thing. Especially any of the Seagull movies.

Don't get me wrong, I like MA movies. In fact I love them! The more hokie the better. However, anything I've seen in the movies is clearly choreographed for a stronger effect.

If you want to train for self defense, check out the Animal

If you want to fight go Gracie JJ and Muay Thai boxing.

If you want to seek out the transcendental meditation with some eclectic funky stuff, go bujinkan. But first, read some of Dr. Morris' books.

Walking on hot coals and breathing 5 times a minute...

Spanky

chris davis 200 · 11-19-2002, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Anything you see in the movies doesn't prove a damn thing. Especially any of the Seagull movies.

Agreed! that comment makes me sound like a bit of a novice to say the least!!

I did not really mean that this stuff was real!

I ment that Aikido is an effective defence system, not sure how i related that to SEAGULL movies!! nevermind just a bit of fun anyways!!

Gracie JJ - what do you mean for fighting - competition??

Cheers
Chris

Szczepankiewicz · 11-19-2002, 11:19 AM

Aikido may be effect for SD at the higher levels of students but I am not sure how effective it is at the lower levels.

Fighting: competition and picking fights with your friends.

Spanky

ryanhall · 11-19-2002, 04:02 PM

david,
you're obviously new to the game, and that's ok. you'll hear a lot of opinions about this style or that style and which is "street effective," and you'll have to make your own call. however, i have to tell you that traditional martial arts do not stand up outside of the dojo. most use inefficient techniques, impractical stances, and are based upon stupid concepts. if you have to choose a martial art, try boxing or muay thai--practice it/them and then know you still have a lot to learn. physical techniqes are only about 15% of the personal protection picture. it is much more important to have control of your emotions, be able to manipulate the behavior of others, and to control fear/adrenaline when it kicks in (not ring fear/adrenaline--the kind that you get when a crackhead with a blade wants to separate your head from your shoulders to get your wallet). is tkd (or any other traditional martial art for that matter) gonna help you here? how about aikido? do you want to study a style founded by a man who wouldn't hurt people if they attacked him with intent to kill? don't be fooled by the aesthetics of a system. steven segal can NOT fight like he does in the movies--nobody can. chris may have used tjj in the past, but i can tell you to a near certainty that he didn't try to wrist lock his assailant. please correct me if i'm wrong.

for all you tkd fans (or detractors) out there, here's a story: a couple years back, an olympic tkd player was out at a club and got into it with one of the bouncers. things came to a head, and the tkd guy threw a high roundhouse that would have taken the head off the bouncer. unfortunately for tkd boy, the bouncer's flinch reaction was to put his hands up in front of his face and block the kick. he then proceeded to spike the tkd guy to the pavement and beat him so badly that he was put into the icu at the local hospital. i don't remember the exact source, but this did happen.

if you are serious about learning to defend yourself oustide the ring, i suggest looking into tony blauer, geoff thompson, sammy franco, or richard dimitri. they are all very capable instructors with a wealth of knowledge and first hand experience. just my opinion.

hope i helped

Szczepankiewicz · 11-19-2002, 07:16 PM

"i don't remember the exact source, but this did happen"

I'll never lose another debate as long as I live!

Spanky

jesse7 · 11-19-2002, 07:46 PM

No Offence Ryan but ... yeh thats a lame story

.

Was the TKD guy drunk? was the bouncer 500 times bigger than this olympic champ? (Do TKD touny's have weight classes?).

ETC ETC .. everyone has their bad days.

Hell Ive been beat up by some of the pee wees I train with on occassion because they get in some lucky hits, or I do a stupid move that opens me up etc .. where has usually they are no contest.

This is the advantage of full contact sparing ... you can loose sometimes even if you are dominating a fight.

ryanhall · 11-19-2002, 08:13 PM

"i don't remember the exact source, but this did happen"
I'll never lose another debate as long as I live!

lol. ok, that was bad. i'll try to explain:

well, i'll freely admit it was weak, and without evidence, i was using it to make a point. the tkd guy did happen to be a bit smaller--just for the record. the idea was that a lot of trad martial arts give you some poor concepts that can definitely hinder you in a real life situation--round house kicking to the head, etc. (i don't want to list). the point was that the tkd guy, though very skilled in his art, was definitely not up to the task of defending himself realistically--a product of unrealistic training. about the story: my bad. i'll have some evidence in the future if i want to reference something. sorry bout that.

ryan

11-18-2002, 08:13 PM	#1 (permalink)
David Hume Novice Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 14	Jujitsu vs. Bujinkan Taijutsu/ninjutsu Hello I'm considering a traditional Japanese Jujitsu dojo (not Gracie style stuff) and Bujinkan Taijutsu/Ninjutsu. I'll be sure to visit each dojo of course, and I'm learning about each style on the web, but what can anyone else offer for suggestions? Any advice would be greatly appreciated, especially if you've practiced either martial art. Thank you David Hume

11-18-2002, 09:36 PM	#3 (permalink)
David Hume Novice Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 14	more Spanky, I earned a black belt in Tae Kwon Do when I was around 13 or 14, and I got burned out (and discovered girls and a motorcycle). In college I studied Jujitsu for a semester, Aikido for a semester (same semester), and had about 2 months of Iaido. I was too busy to attend more than one session per week and had to move soon anyway so I had to drop out. My life is more stable now, with more free time to commit to such things. Since college I've thought about returning to TKD or starting another MA because it was a lot of fun, decent exercise, relaxing, challenging, and nice to know it had some potential practical benefit in self-defense situations. For all of those reasons I want to study a MA once again. The only preference besides those factors is an increased awareness of the practical, self-defense component - I want to learn something that can realistically work if I ever had to defend myself. I honestly don't think what I learned in TKD would do me much good against an aggressive, sober, and armed attacker. I have similar reservations towards Aikido. Does this information help? -David Hume

11-19-2002, 01:56 AM	#4 (permalink)
crazyjoe380 Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,368	Let me ask u... Have u ever used tkd in a fight or to defend urself? be honest too .. did u get your ass kicked or did u win the fight? or have u not been challenged to any degree of violence?????? break it down. if u did, what made tkd fail or work.. Let the don know __________________

11-19-2002, 04:02 PM	#12 (permalink)
ryanhall Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 1,247	martial arts do not = self defense david, you're obviously new to the game, and that's ok. you'll hear a lot of opinions about this style or that style and which is "street effective," and you'll have to make your own call. however, i have to tell you that traditional martial arts do not stand up outside of the dojo. most use inefficient techniques, impractical stances, and are based upon stupid concepts. if you have to choose a martial art, try boxing or muay thai--practice it/them and then know you still have a lot to learn. physical techniqes are only about 15% of the personal protection picture. it is much more important to have control of your emotions, be able to manipulate the behavior of others, and to control fear/adrenaline when it kicks in (not ring fear/adrenaline--the kind that you get when a crackhead with a blade wants to separate your head from your shoulders to get your wallet). is tkd (or any other traditional martial art for that matter) gonna help you here? how about aikido? do you want to study a style founded by a man who wouldn't hurt people if they attacked him with intent to kill? don't be fooled by the aesthetics of a system. steven segal can NOT fight like he does in the movies--nobody can. chris may have used tjj in the past, but i can tell you to a near certainty that he didn't try to wrist lock his assailant. please correct me if i'm wrong. for all you tkd fans (or detractors) out there, here's a story: a couple years back, an olympic tkd player was out at a club and got into it with one of the bouncers. things came to a head, and the tkd guy threw a high roundhouse that would have taken the head off the bouncer. unfortunately for tkd boy, the bouncer's flinch reaction was to put his hands up in front of his face and block the kick. he then proceeded to spike the tkd guy to the pavement and beat him so badly that he was put into the icu at the local hospital. i don't remember the exact source, but this did happen. if you are serious about learning to defend yourself oustide the ring, i suggest looking into tony blauer, geoff thompson, sammy franco, or richard dimitri. they are all very capable instructors with a wealth of knowledge and first hand experience. just my opinion. hope i helped __________________ "Ray, when someone asks you if you're a god, you say YES!"

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11-18-2002, 09:17 PM	#2 (permalink)
Szczepankiewicz Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Meridian, ID, USA Posts: 4,109	Well Dave, Why are you wanting to get into martial arts? Self-defense? Sport? Exercise? Meditation? I need more information if'n I'm gonna give expert advice..... Spanky

11-19-2002, 09:25 AM	#6 (permalink)
David Hume Novice Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 14	Actually no, I never used TKD to defend myself. I never had to. If I had, it would depend on the fight. If it's one on one and the guy tried to pull me to the ground then I would have been beaten to a pulp. Come on, he's supposed to stay 3 feet away from me and bounce up and down like we did in Tae Kwon Do sparring. I'm really "thrown" by the comments above regarding Traditional Jujitsu. I had thought the Bujinkan Taijitsu stuff would be more practical - the practice against knife attackers, handguns, and teach you how to defend yourself with a knife also (of legal size). Check out their URL: www.tacticalselfdefense.com I'm just concerned they might be nuts. Anyone else have advice?

11-19-2002, 09:39 AM	#8 (permalink)
chris davis 200 Registered User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: UK Posts: 724	To be honest these guys look to be quite good. If they are nuts it should be quite obvious. What TJJ school were you concidering? Cheers Chris

11-19-2002, 10:06 AM	#9 (permalink)
Szczepankiewicz Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Meridian, ID, USA Posts: 4,109	I'm sorry Chris, but 'I know that is the movies but you can see the real power in his techniques and can judge their effectivness. ' Anything you see in the movies doesn't prove a damn thing. Especially any of the Seagull movies. Don't get me wrong, I like MA movies. In fact I love them! The more hokie the better. However, anything I've seen in the movies is clearly choreographed for a stronger effect. If you want to train for self defense, check out the Animal If you want to fight go Gracie JJ and Muay Thai boxing. If you want to seek out the transcendental meditation with some eclectic funky stuff, go bujinkan. But first, read some of Dr. Morris' books. Walking on hot coals and breathing 5 times a minute... Spanky

11-19-2002, 11:19 AM	#11 (permalink)
Szczepankiewicz Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Meridian, ID, USA Posts: 4,109	Aikido may be effect for SD at the higher levels of students but I am not sure how effective it is at the lower levels. Fighting: competition and picking fights with your friends. Spanky

11-19-2002, 07:16 PM	#13 (permalink)
Szczepankiewicz Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Meridian, ID, USA Posts: 4,109	"i don't remember the exact source, but this did happen" I'll never lose another debate as long as I live! Spanky

11-19-2002, 07:46 PM	#14 (permalink)
jesse7 Novice Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Hamilton New Zealand Posts: 141	No Offence Ryan but ... yeh thats a lame story . Was the TKD guy drunk? was the bouncer 500 times bigger than this olympic champ? (Do TKD touny's have weight classes?). ETC ETC .. everyone has their bad days. Hell Ive been beat up by some of the pee wees I train with on occassion because they get in some lucky hits, or I do a stupid move that opens me up etc .. where has usually they are no contest. This is the advantage of full contact sparing ... you can loose sometimes even if you are dominating a fight.

11-19-2002, 08:13 PM	#15 (permalink)
ryanhall Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 1,247	"i don't remember the exact source, but this did happen" I'll never lose another debate as long as I live! lol. ok, that was bad. i'll try to explain: well, i'll freely admit it was weak, and without evidence, i was using it to make a point. the tkd guy did happen to be a bit smaller--just for the record. the idea was that a lot of trad martial arts give you some poor concepts that can definitely hinder you in a real life situation--round house kicking to the head, etc. (i don't want to list). the point was that the tkd guy, though very skilled in his art, was definitely not up to the task of defending himself realistically--a product of unrealistic training. about the story: my bad. i'll have some evidence in the future if i want to reference something. sorry bout that. ryan

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