(( Hand Throws ))

[blade_cs]

I've seen how Aikido and Hapkido have these hand throws (eg: wrist throws or chicken wing type throws) where the guy (call him person A) who does the technique goes under the arm of the partner (call him person B) and does a wrist twist or some kind of joint lock throw. These types of techniques work and are effective because if person B doesn't flip (or roll), he'll break his wrist or some other joint.

However, how easy do you guys think these type of technques would be applied to a real fight or even a non-cooperating parter. I mean, even if person A distracts B (by simply light strikes or even hard punching) while going under B's arm or around B, it seems pretty difficult of B resist or if he's fighting A. And going around or under B's arm, it takes a lot of stepping and time. During practice in the training centre, it's easy (because your partner holds his arm out for you!).

I would like to hear you guys opinions on this.

[Scott Kano]

Im not saying im right here, but some of the wrist throws in these type of situations are when A strikes at B and then B catches his wrist and then moves while twisting the wrist round and flips them over.
Steven Segal does I realise hey it might just be a movie but that is the principle of it and I have seen an aikido demonstration and seen it.

thanks
Scott

[chris davis 200]

However, how easy do you guys think these type of technques would be applied to a real fight or even a non-cooperating parter. I mean, even if person A distracts B (by simply light strikes or even hard punching) while going under B's arm or around B, it seems pretty difficult of B resist or if he's fighting A. And going around or under B's arm, it takes a lot of stepping and time. During practice in the training centre, it's easy (because your partner holds his arm out for you!).

I thikn that these turning movements and the presentation of the hand for the completion of the technique are basic movements fairly unique to Aikido & maybe hapkido, I do Aiki JuJutsu and most of this type of these movement is done in straight lines (although sometimes we do circle).

I have used wrist Locks in real situations but have only used a wrist throw type technique once, i did definatly work and the attacker dropped fairly similarly to the dojo. But not sure about the catching punches to apply it. it is very useful when the range of the fight closes and the arms are within reach. these techniques do work both for breaking wrists and dropping attackers - but like all techniques should be viewed in the correct context.

Cheers
Chris

[blade_cs]

Although I basically know what you guys are describing, can you link me to some video clips that coincide with what you're saying? Then I can understand better.

Thanks.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Small joint manipulation is difficult at best. In a static situation they work fairly well. In a dynamic situation with a sweaty combatant, they get more difficult to apply.

I tried to apply some wrist techniques aginst some judoka, and it didn't work all that well. Sweaty, my technique was poor, and they are wise to grappling moves.

Interesting question....


Sputnik

If you train really hard, for years, you can make the wrist throws work against an opponent who hasn't yet kicked off, i.e. he may just be laying his hands on you etc, not yet swinging away.

If he is swinging away in a real attempt to knock your head off, then forget it. The movements are much too complex to be performed when the shit has hit the fan, and the opponents arm will not be in the right place for your convenience.

Forget demonstartions of Aikido. Like Pro Wrestling, the "thrown" opponent is working the technique just as much as the throwing one. He helpfully "attacks" by dangling his hands out, and then rolls around for dramatic effect. The daft thing is many of them convince themselves that they are not doing this. But they are.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Yeah, what he said.

[ryanhall]

amen. the absolute truth.

If he is swinging away in a real attempt to knock your head off, then forget it. The movements are much too complex to be performed when the shit has hit the fan, and the opponents arm will not be in the right place for your convenience.

thank god some people are not led around by the nose


ryan

[Mr. Miyagi]

Wrist locks do work, I even tapped out to one while sparring once. But my opponent had leverage on me and had already passed my guard.

I really can't see a throw working with just a hand or wrist grip unless your opponent is cooperating. I don't think it would be so easy to break their wrist either. Never saw any of the thousands of sparring sessions I've seen or participated in involve an effective "hand throw" or standing wristlock. Maybe it's not possible against guys who train grappling but could be useful on the street?

[ryanhall]

miyagi,

you're referring to the ground. a wrist lever on the ground could snap a hand off or at least cause serious pain--because the wrist is stabalized. that could be an ok technique in my opinion. a wrist twist standing up (not stabalized against the ground) just pisses someone off enough to fight back harder than they would have. people don't "go with" chokes and armbars (the ground). those have been proven to work time and again on resisting opponents. when was the last time a standing wrist lock/throw worked on a real opponent? these are for demonstrations.



ryan

[dzl256]

ive never seen a wrist lock work in nhb when the opponents are standing

[hjohnson]

Thought I'd ad my .02 cents to this.

I'm very familiar with Hapkido joint lock throws and like any technique, they can be VERY effective when used at the right time.

But in my humble opinion, trying to pull one off right off the get go when the guy zips a punch to your face (like the way it's trained in traditional Hapkido) is probably suicide (at least for most of us).

I would use or train these techniques as a follow through after affecting other targets (like using some destructions or getting some elbow and knee shots in, etc.). The joint lock throws can be done once there is some kind of contact/tie up, AFTER other targets have been hit to soften the guy up. The techniqes just happen because you're there, you don't force them. They also flow real nice with FMA empty hand/ trapping techniques.

[blade_cs]

Originally posted by hjohnson
Thought I'd ad my .02 cents to this.

I'm very familiar with Hapkido joint lock throws and like any technique, they can be VERY effective when used at the right time.

But in my humble opinion, trying to pull one off right off the get go when the guy zips a punch to your face (like the way it's trained in traditional Hapkido) is probably suicide (at least for most of us).

I would use or train these techniques as a follow through after affecting other targets (like using some destructions or getting some elbow and knee shots in, etc.). The joint lock throws can be done once there is some kind of contact/tie up, AFTER other targets have been hit to soften the guy up. The techniqes just happen because you're there, you don't force them. They also flow real nice with FMA empty hand/ trapping techniques.

Since your Hapkido training isn't traditional, what is it? Combat? And what grandmaster are you under?

[hjohnson]

My training was traditional. It was the first martial art I studied for about 6 yrs in Hawaii under Damien Wong (instructor under Master Bong Soo Han). But now looking back with other arts (jkd, fma, boxing, etc.) as a reference point, I can say that a lot of the (hapkido) techniqes are really good, but often the way they are trained are not realistic (too static). One good thing, we did a LOT of sparring, like every night, which I don't think was "traditional" at all or maybe it is I don't know.

[aseepish]

Accidental, if not incidental (or is it incidental if not accidental?).

In other words if they happen, great! But don't go out looking for them. Train them so you know how to counter them.