Traditional Jiu Jitsu more effective on the streets vs Brazilian style..(gracie)

[crazyjoe380]

i was talking to a jiu jitsu brown belt...

from the techniques he was showing me was all stand up grappling. chokes with knees to your back.. standing up.. the way he got me into that position is another story..

all of the moves he was showing me were great.. yet..
i had to analize.. you know me... lol

i went for the punch.. (the way he told me to punch) and he ducked it and got me into a reverse triangle choke...

interesting moves.. but what i seen as the nhb fighters.. it's a little harder to do moves like that to them.

so i feel that style is good ... he was even deminstrating against multiple attackers..

it has the same teaching from what i see but bjj is more ground.. JJ is more .. everything.. but only good against non martial artists..

it's good to know both..

but what u guys think?

[ryanhall]

my only experience is with bjj and hapkido (similar to tjj), so i'll keep my opinions to myself. however, preforming a pre-set response to a punch that he told you to throw means nothing. anybody can do that. if he told you to punch, instead you tried to kick him in the knee, and he was still able to do something to you...then i'd say he's got something. it's nothing if you have to follow his rules. just my 2 cents.


ryan

[crazyjoe380]

true ..


what i'm getting at is...

what would be more effective..

i know this 100 percent that a street fighter will throw a punch before anything else..

so take advantage of that..
but the people i hang out with have good boxing skills and are no joke.. i dont see them getting defeated by a traditional JJ guy..

Multiple attack .. i would mos def not hit the floor..

[Szczepankiewicz]

the way he told me to punch

Your statement there says it all. IF they do what you want them to do it's easy to defend.


I've done quite a bit of research on Traditional Japanese Ju jitsu. It's simply karate with some grappling thrown in. Practicing from stances with preconditional moves, it's tough for me to digest.


If you find a specialized school that focuses on either fighting or self-defense you might find some useful stuff. It can't hurt, as long as you use your bullshit filters....

There are benefits to all styles and structures, but is the cost (meaing picking up inefficient or just plain wrong ways to do things) worth what you have to gain?

The only time my 'traditional jujutsu sensei' uses the term 'attack like this' is when he is describing the principles of a technique. From that point on we study and practice as many variations that we could apply that technique to and see how it works. If the principles are sound, it doesn't matter what your opponent does to attack, as long as it falls into the window of opportunity, the technique should reach one of the desired conclusions. IN grappling that is either escape or containment of the opponent.


When we spar full contact full speed sometimes the techniques work and sometimes they don't. We practice for both eventualities. I know that I can apply my arm bars, hand strikes, foot strikes, and throws on adversaries of all shapes, sizes, and skill levels. The progression we use is the same as the BJJ progression, if this isn't working keep applying different techniques until something does work.

If you really want to test him out, have your ju jitsu buddy spar you full contact, with gear and see what works and what doesn't.

We test every new student in the same manner, regardless of credentials. We have them escape and evade during the first exercise, in a stand up striking situation.

If they meet all of the standards we are looking for we proceed to grappling situations.

If they meet all the stadards there, we ask them to train us...


Good luck,

Spanky

[ryanhall]

i guess i'd say that some tjj moves would work if you had the element of surprise (just like a lot of other things). i don't know a lot about the system, so i can't comment on it in its entirety. against someone with good hands though? you may parry one or two, but try to grab a wrist and you'll be eating some knuckles. same story with a committed attacker, i'd guess.

you mentioned the fact that it's difficult to make a move work against a trained fighter--nhb guys. i think the issue is more about resistance than training. wing chun players tell me that they pull off traps all the time against fellow wc guys. however, that stuff is plain and simple not going to work unless your attacker does exactly what you need him to do--the trap will fall apart and you will get whacked. many martial arts become good at fighting themselves--when you know what your opponent is capable of and that he doesn't really want to hurt you, then you can make a lot more things work. in the ring or at a bar, it's a different story--they do want to get you, and they won't play your game. if wing chunners fought boxers all the time, they would eliminate traps so fast that their heads would spin.

multiple attackers:
like you said, don't go to the floor. however, locks, holds, chokes, etc. be they standing or on the ground leave you stationary/locked in place. they are extremely poor choices. striking and some really foul tactics are the way to go. how was the tjj guy doing multiples? i'd be interested to know.

in the end, i guess it would be cool to know a little tjj, but definitely not essential.

ryan

[crazyjoe380]

WHEN HE HAD ME IN THAT REVERSE TRIANGLE..


HE WAS SAYING THAT IF THERE WAS MULTIPLE ATTACKERS HE WOULD KEEP ME INFRONT OF THEM AT THE SAME TIME CHOKING ME TO DEATH.. THEN WHEN I HAVE NO MORE MOVEMENT .. HE WOULD DROP ME AND MOVE THE NEXT LOGICAL MOVE..

SO ON AND SO FORTH..

ALSO HE WOULD CLINCH MY HEAD LIKE IF YOU WERE MUAY THAI PREPARING FOR STRIKES AND MOVE ME INFRONT OF ANOTHER CLOSING IN ATTACKER.. THEN HE'D LET ME GO AND TRY TO CLINCH ANOTHER ATTACKER.. TRY TO DO THE SAME THING ..

SEEMED LOGICAL WHEN SOMEONE IS TEACHING IT BUT ...DOING IT IS HARD.. ESPECIALLY IF THE OTHER GUYS HAVE KNIVES.. BUT SOMETHING IS BETTER THEN NOTHING.

[ryanhall]

based on my experience in drills and talking to a lot of people who have dealt with multiple assailants, i'd have to say your friend is wrong. locking up is foolish. period. who's to say that he will be able to choke you to death? does he really think that his awesome moves will work just the way they do in practice? hmmmm...not good. how does he know that you don't have a knife in your pocket and you are about to give him a vasectomy--seems like something he'd want to be aware of? his entire premise revolves around having his back to a wall so that nobody can come from behind him. nice, huh? i don't think so. the other guys would come in and beat him because he wasn't able to run. also, choking someone to death does not take 3.4 seconds like tjj brown belt would like to believe. also, it's not really all that easy to move someone around like a marionette--he wouldn't be able to put you where he wants you all the time--in real life, people resist when you try to hurt them.

SEEMED LOGICAL WHEN SOMEONE IS TEACHING IT BUT ...DOING IT IS HARD.. ESPECIALLY IF THE OTHER GUYS HAVE KNIVES.. BUT SOMETHING IS BETTER THEN NOTHING.

something better than nothing would be verbally defusing the situation, setting up the best target, giving him an axe hand to the throat, gouging the eyes of another, and running for the door. making a brave stand and deonstrating your martial prowess is not a tactically sound principle.

i think spanky said it best: IF they do what you want them to do it's easy to defend. telling someone what you would do in a set situation is pointless--few things ever work out the way you want them to.

at least that's what i think
ryan

[crazyjoe380]

i guess..

but that's what he says..

the whole thing started when i said .. bjj is better then jj.. he was trying to prove me wrong with points..

i need to fight him...lol.. then we'll see..naw .. j/p that aint the answer.. i'm just saying.. that's what he said not what i believe..

[ryanhall]

don't bother trying to convince anyone of anything. i've tried it and it fails miserably 99.9% of the time. facts and experience mean nothing to someone who is so set in their ways that they would die for some stupid grand master.

ryan

[ceasarx]

I study TJJ and we practice all off our skills in something called the a minute in hell. In this drill we have four opponents come in to attack at all differant angles and we have to defend ourselves while maintaining control. The attackers keep comeing for one full minute and they attack with anything they want to.
we do this drill once a week and I have found that the skills I have work against strikes kicks grabs and anyone trying to grapple me. The strikes and kicks are done lightly for any student green belt or lower. But blue belts and above get swung at hard and fast so they can prepare for a real combat situation.
The only differance between our Dojo and the streets is that we have padded mats
and as I have said before I respect BJJ and all martial arts and there practioners