About Real life 'Street Grappling' (JuJutsu) not for the Ring

[NAJJFDAVE]

Originally posted by Szczepankiewicz
I didn't mean for this to degenerate into a X vs. Gracie thread.

And since this is a street grappling thread, I feel we are getting way off track. We can continue on another track if you wish. Simply start a new thread.

Thanks,

Spanky

No problem...

The Gracie system under Grandmaster Helio Gracie is really all about street grappling, it just happens to work real well in competition. I guess most people are only familiar with Gracie Jiu-Jitsu in the Octagon. While Gracie Jiu-Jitsu encompasses those techniques seen in the Octagon, the 40 lesson Gracie system is much more than just the sport jiu-jitsu some people may think it is. It's a real combat self-defense program.
It was developed not for just fighting on a sandy beach or lush grassland as suggested, instead it was developed for fighting in the sometimes mean and very rockey and PAVED streets of Rio.
The Gracies proved their systems effectivness on and off the mat...and against more than one really big guy, armed and unarmed.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Ahso, and were would one find this system? I hope I wouldn't have to fly to Brazil for this type of training.

Bri Thai posted a thread about this exact topic. He was of the opinion that the original true system is being watered down with competition, the way most arts eventually suffer.


Every book out that I have read is about sport. Can you point to some literature (if it exists) on what you're talking about?

Regards,

Spanky

[NAJJFDAVE]

A tape of titled "GRACIE JIU-JITSU: EPISODE ONE
THE KEY TO THE GRACIE SYSTEM OF SELF-DEFENSE"
is available at http://www.gracieacademy.com/store/home_videos.html in addition to a tape series on street self defense from Rorion Gracie.

The Episode One tape has Grandmaster Helio Gracie at 88 years young at the time of the tape demonstrating the system with his grandsons. This is the system that the average Joe walking off the street is taught and is the basis for the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu TM system.

It's truely amazing to watch Helio Gracie in this tape. Most people don't make it to 90 and when they do they are usually not very healthy. Helio Gracie is getting taken to the mat with by his grandsons...the average 88 year old would have a broken hip from this. It's really amazing.

[HuSanYan]

I would like to get myself 'off the hook' a bit by saying that of course its all very well discussing things to do with "The Street" and of course I have not managed to think of every possible situation, that would be impossible as there are literally an infinite amount of possible scenerios/situations......

I am simply trying to contribute something that I hope makes for a decent read here on DefendNet.......

some excellent replies guys, I have noted many of your comments

[Szczepankiewicz]

Absolutely HuSanYan. It's all in the spirit of learning new things.

Even if you're WRONG WRONG WRONG!

Just kidding.

Spanky

[HuSanYan]

Originally posted by NAJJFDAVE
I remember a kenpo/kempo guy back in 1992 that took on Royler Gracie at the academy in Torrence. The kenpo guy taught an equally deadly system like Kempo Goshin Jutsu. Rorion gave the guy the go ahead to use any of his deadly techniques he wanted. After he made quick work of a Gracie, he was going to go back and write an article about his experience for one of the MA mags.

Only problem was that he never got to unleash his deadlyness on Royler, because when Royler was done punching the dude he choked him out. It lasted less than 30 seconds. The deadly Kenpo guy took a second shot at Royler and gave up right after Royler quickly got back mount.

At least the guy went ahead and still wrote the article.

I hardly see this example as relevant unless, of course, the fight took place surrounded by the Kempo guys friends who all got to have a kick and a stab at the Gracie. Hardly fair fighting, I know, but that WAS the point.

In a purely one on one, unarmed contest the Gracies are almost impossible to beat. But when there are weapons, or more than one opponent (or both) there are far better chances of survival (though still no guarantees) than to go to the floor.

Every respect to Gracie Jiu Jitsu. The whole martial arts world has dramatically improved because of its great techniques and strategy. But it does not have all the answers.

In fairness to this great style, I have heard a tale from a guy who is responsible for teaching H2H to the US Rangers. He states that he was training with the Gracies when a guy came in offereing a similar challenge.

Rickson chose his (then) 14 year old son to represent the family, and the lad whipped this challenger soundly. The challenger then wanted another go, saying that he had not used his most brutal techniques. So the man and the boy went at it again, with the boy the victor once more.

It takes a certain bravery to put your own son in the frame, and a certain style to know he will win.

All credit to the Gracies. I do hope they stop the rot and take the sport out of Gracie Jiu Jitsu before it is too late. Otherwise Rickson's grandson might find himself going for points just before he gets beat (no disrespect intended).

[DRLashambe]

Y'know, anytime I read posts on this forum about fighting styles used in "the street," one important fact seems to be missed constantly: 99% of the people you will ever be in a real fight with have no training. I don't have to be on my back to apply an arm-lock or key-lock when I fight against someone who doesn't have any martial arts skills. These are still grappling skills, I'd just never get them on someone in the ring who knows this is coming and knows how to defend against it.

As for the idea that BJJ has become too sport oriented...the next time you're ready to tap out, hold out for a two count and tell me it's not the longest two seconds of your life.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Two seconds is juuuuust long enough for me to pull my little 2 inch blade and start making sausage....

[NAJJFDAVE]

Originally posted by DRLashambe

As for the idea that BJJ has become too sport oriented...the next time you're ready to tap out, hold out for a two count and tell me it's not the longest two seconds of your life.

But of course that is the point at which you have a broken arm or you have passed out or both.

[NAJJFDAVE]

Originally posted by Bri Thai


I hardly see this example as relevant unless, of course, the fight took place surrounded by the Kempo guys friends who all got to have a kick and a stab at the Gracie. Hardly fair fighting, I know, but that WAS the point.

In a purely one on one, unarmed contest the Gracies are almost impossible to beat. But when there are weapons, or more than one opponent (or both) there are far better chances of survival (though still no guarantees) than to go to the floor.

Every respect to Gracie Jiu Jitsu. The whole martial arts world has dramatically improved because of its great techniques and strategy. But it does not have all the answers.

It is relevant in relation to the first post in this thread. Nothing has all the answers, but some have more than others. Now put a knife in the hands of a Gracie that has his friends standing watch. OUCH!

I think you have missed my point.

Put the knife in the hand of just about any semi able bodied person that has his or her friends standing watch (and, don't forget, joining in at will).

The impression I got from the original post was that the author thought BJJ has been rated too highly, by some, as a means of self defence in circumstances such as this. It is a view I share but, as things stand, I still would not bet money on my chances with a BJJ Black Belt.

However, if he sticks to the BJJ take em down strategy, I WOULD bet money that I could put up a better fight against the afore mentioned knife holder and friends than the BJJ Black Belt would.

OK, odds on I'll be made into soup, but at least I won't lie down on the floor and help them prepare the ingredients first.

OUCH.

[Ice Phoenix]

Gracie Jiu-Jitsu has proven itself time and time again. Anyone who thinks it only works "on the mat" and not "on the street" is a moron. Sure GJJ doesn't have all the answers, but it has the most!

The Gracie's realised long ago that no form of training WHATSOEVER can effectively deal with multiple opponents or weapons, therefore they left that dead-end pursuit to the dreamy traditional martial arts of the world and concentrated on what WILL be reliable and what CAN be counted on (1 on 1 unarmed combat) and therefore became the best in the world at it.

The fact is that the safest place to be when fighting a larger opponent is first in the clinch, and then even better, on the ground. Striking with a larger opponent isn't a good strategy.

(And no I'm not a "Gracie Nuthugger" as some ignorant fools would say, I'm simply realistic)

[NAJJFDAVE]

Originally posted by Bri Thai
I think you have missed my point.

The impression I got from the original post was that the author thought BJJ has been rated too highly, by some, as a means of self defence in circumstances such as this. It is a view I share but, as things stand, I still would not bet money on my chances with a BJJ Black Belt.

BJJ maybe, I don't know. As for GJJ, Rorion Gracie has said that he wouldn't try and go to the ground or get to tied up with a guy with a bunch of buddies backing him up. That's just common sense.

Regardless of what some people might say, I don't think any system of self-defense can really prepare a person to deal with multiple attackers. However, if there is a system like that out there then it should be displayed at an MMA venue for the world to see.