About Real life 'Street Grappling' (JuJutsu) not for the Ring

[JThorne]

HuSanYan, this is one of the best forum posts I have ever read, great stuff man

[Thai Bri]

You need to read more. Man.

[JThorne]

but I have read a hell of a lot of threads on here over the last few weeks & thought it was a good one.

If it cheers u up, I might do a search for some of your threads and give em a read

in the meantime TB don't be too

[Great Sage]

Hmm... First of all, a very good post. I seem to remember you commenting about kung-fu, so I think maybe this post is an elaboration of your ideas.

That said, I think there are some things I would disagree upon regarding your post... Which by the way, is a good opinion.

Originally posted by HuSanYan
Hopefully I can shed some light on just where ground grappling fits into the world of Combat Martial Artists repertoire of techniques and also it's strengths and weaknesses, plus what is essential to know if you go to the floor/paving area in a fight!

You can shed the light on what you understand to be true... However, for every person who says that ground fighting is the last place to be, there’s someone who says otherwise. I’m more interested in actual statistics of violence and their conditions. Are more fights taken to the ground? What usually happens to participants on the ground, or standing up? These are intangibles of course, but someone who wants to shed some light on the matter should have ready credentials. For instance, when Ed Parker was developing American Kenpo, he would teach techniques to law enforcement officers who later reported whether the techniques worked or not. Needless to say, it was a method of testing the waters.

Originally posted by HuSanYan
Thirdly think of environment (no not if the ozone layer is still deteriorating!) but where you might be if you hit the deck. Remember most grappling arts like Judo and Wrestling are done on mats or canvas, so you have no fear of hitting the ground. Arts like the now famous Brazilian Ju-Jutsu were practised in a warm climate on country where the exponents fought on sandy beaches, lush grassland. They were not rolling round on icy, hard, cold, uneven and uncompromising pavement in the middle of January on a winter night, nor was it designed for thrashing around on a beer soaked or glass covered bar floor or dance floor after trouble has started or neither for struggling on a urine drenched toilet floor!

This statement is misinformed... The streets and night clubs of Brazil are every bit as hazardous, if not more so than the United States. I think because you have a preconceived image of Brazil as a tropical paradise, you think everyone is fighting on sandy beaches and cushioned leaflets... Unfortunately, this just isn’t so.

Originally posted by HuSanYan
Remember, if you are out for a quiet night with your 'lady', with your best 'designer' gear on, looking cool, the last thing you want to be doing is rolling about in three different kinds of dog excrement (note how I cleaned that up, I wish someone would!) in front of the local 'takeout'.

Honestly, it wouldn’t matter if I was wearing million-dollar garments... If my wife or child was in danger, I would roll in cow manure... The point is, the other guy will be eating that stuff later.

Originally posted by HuSanYan
Wrestling and Judo pins are not much good in 'real combat' they can only serve as time buying 'manoeuvres' to get into a better finishing technique. In the street you will not be looking for a quick finish and get back onto your feet, it won't be timed bout with the 'ref' ready to step in. an opponent who may submit to a hold or a lock can and may get up and suddenly up the stake by drawing a weapon or fashioning one out of something at hand. It really is best to make sure he doesn't get up again in a hurry so you can make your exit!

Well, in the first place, you should avoid or run from a fight. If you do get into a fight, I sincerely hope you’re not just pinning the guy. In BJJ, we use positions to gain momentum and leverage to break down the opponent, thus breaking him! A lot of BJJ submissions are more favorable than simply swinging at someone who may be immune to your punches. The key here is control.

Originally posted by HuSanYan
I know loads of armbars, locks, leg locks, strangles, etc, but in a street situation you will not have time to execute them, you have got to adapt.

As do I, and they are quick and easy to apply on an unsuspecting attacker, should the occasion arise. If you’re not using your submissions then you should be wary about your position and get right up.

Originally posted by HuSanYan
Some say the moves are brutal, but in answer to that, unless you have experienced a situation where your strength is ebbing, your arms feel like lead, your guts feel sick and you have a larger, heavier opponent lying on you, you will have to know and use the techniques mentioned.

Well, this all goes along the lines of training, preparation and mental state. Some people will fold under pressure regardless of their training. However, a lot people who are serious about martial arts know what comes with the territory.

Originally posted by HuSanYan
How many instructors out there grapple or spar or whatever with their instructors or students? .You will learn a lot about yourself, your belt or position won't matter once it goes down. Win or lose you will learn, if you are prepared to give it a go!

In most serious gyms, the instructors take pride in developing their students. Also, most serious gyms rank their students accordingly and fairly accurately based on the integrity of that art. Senior students in BJJ hold their rank because of their individual achievements based on the entire BJJ curriculum. That says a lot about that individual. The same can be said about the star boxer at your local gym. He gets all the attention and sparring partners. At some point or time, these things will matter.

Don’t get me wrong... I agree with you—one should stay on their feet, but grappling in many cases is by default. Altoghether though, a solid post.

[Nutz]

Originally posted by Jacob Sterling
Biting? Attempting to blind someone? Grabbing people's testicles?


Jesus Christ, boy. I'd hate to fight you. You fight like a ****ing animal, not a human being.

What do you think a fight is? Think about it, the only time you really should ever have to fight is when things are so far beyond the realm of reason that you or him is gonna end up really messed up or dead. Often times in a "real" fight, the winner is still a loser in that they either end up in jail or hospital. That's the realities of a fight. And in that kind of situation you're not out to make friends.

[uNliMit3d mK]

since u know a lot of leg locks and arm locks, do u think u can teach me some techniques?

[alwaysmixwell]

i notice every post about BJJ as street defense people say "what if he has a knife, what if there are multiple attackers ?what if theres broken glass on the street?" people act like theres always an attacker with a knife and his buddys are standing around AND your going to be fighting on the ground (full of glass everywhere) these are worst case scenarios. i think 1 on 1 no weapons and no other attackers and not on a glass filled ground (which can be common )that BJJ is effective.. ive never seen a fight that has all these cases.. most fights ive seen on the street are 1 on 1 with no other complications(weapons,glass etc).. besides wouldnt you rather take an opponent down in a dominant position and pound the ish outta him ? i know i would since i dont think personally my stand up is strong and i wouldnt go blow for blow with someone that i felt was a better striker.. just my thoughts though.. and if the ground is "rough" then you gotta deal with it.. the fight will probably go to the ground anyways.. personally id be thinking more about my attacker/opponent than worrying about what condition the ground was in.. i mean you cant be like "well im not going to the ground because i might skin my knees" adrenaline is high and i really doubt that your going to be aware 100% of your surroundings..(it would be good to be aware but you cant be 100% aware if a fight just WHAM starts out of nowhere.

[CKD]

People on this forum have been going to some junky, they ussually clean glass up over here. As for multiple opponents, run away, your pretty much screwed standing up and on the ground, the knee on belly position is good if you suspect multiples, it allows you to stand up easily if you suspect multiples. But most fights I have seen people did not get involved when it went to the ground they watched and cheered. Besides that I have seen bjj takedowns end the fight a lot, imagine getting dumped on the cement head first.

[alwaysmixwell]

i agree with CKD.. honestly how often do you see glass layed out on the ground?? i rarlely see it.. and obviously your not going to go to the ground if theres mult. attackers.. i think when someone asks a regular question like is BJJ good for street defense i think they mean 1 on 1 no jumping in and no weapons.. and of course no glass laying on the ground.. and then everyones has to say well "what if" well i dont think bjj is effective in street fighting because what if a dog runs up and starts attacking you while your in the guard ?? or what if you were fighting in a park and a tree just fell over while you were choking someone out.. c'mon..

[pstevens]

I agree with both of you. I think most people can determine a street fight from a tournament. I seriously doubt any grappler will be looking to score points in a street fight. The thing is, most "what if" scenarios are trivial until they actually happen. The most anyone can do is train hard.

[CKD]

Basically your screwed up if there are multiples or weapons standing up anyway. No art is going to save you from multiples you just need to run and same with the weapon run like heck. Thats when bjj conditioning comes in handy. Every art has it weaknesses but most people like to rag on bjjs since it has actually has somewhat proof that is effective. Most fights do not involve multiples and weapons and bjj actually has weapon defense but I have never seen a weapon street fight were the attacker decided to pull out a knife while he was in the dudes guard, they pulled it out long before the fight went to the ground. Ussually they were not looking to stab the dude either they just said back off.

[gracilva]

a bit of glass in your back is a small price to pay for winning a fight.
you could keep the fight standing and end up with all your
teeth down your throat.
there is a time and place,imo

[HuSanYan]

Originally Posted by gracilva

a bit of glass in your back is a small price to pay for winning a fight.
you could keep the fight standing and end up with all your
teeth down your throat.
there is a time and place,imo

agreed.....

[HiryuHien]

Originally Posted by HuSanYan

t
, as is ripping the side of his mouth with your thumbs or digging a
knuckle into the mastoid behind the ear. b

those actually worked for me in one fight

[C. Montes]

"Remember, if you are out for a quiet night with your 'lady', with your best 'designer' gear on, looking cool, the last thing you want to be doing is rolling about in three different kinds of dog excrement "

why is it that to drive this "contest" grappling vs. "street" grappling point home, one will almost always play up to the paranoia and insecurities of most practicing martial artists ... alpha male confrontation and humiliation. might as well revive the old Tony Atlas comic ads where the skinny punk gets sand kicked in his face and his girl taken away. that was at a beach btw ... so i'm assuming its ok to use 'sport' BJJ in that instance?

"Arts like the now famous Brazilian Ju-Jutsu were practised in a warm climate on country where the exponents fought on sandy beaches, lush grassland. They were not rolling round on icy, hard, cold, uneven and uncompromising pavement in the middle of January on a winter night"

the slums of Rio are not sandy or lush ...
though i doubt there may be much H2H fighting going on there. that terrain is just as rough as what you mentioned.
Also - to the best of my knowledge, Russian Sambo, which is very similiar to Judo and BJJ is used by the Russian military and police, and i believe will hold up to the argument of unfavorable weather and pavement. January winter nights in Russia must suck.

" ... nor was it designed for
thrashing around on a beer soaked or glass covered bar floor or dance floor after trouble has started or neither for struggling on a urine drenched toilet floor! "

again, are you writing some sort of screenplay of the next generation "Death Wish" or "Dirty Harry" movies? cuz if you are, then i'm hooked. if not, then maybe you should seriously reconsider your choice of hang out spots. it seems that the abundance of hostility and lack of hygiene you find there would make it the bottom of the list of places to visit.
what was that? can't always predict when shit will go down? sometimes trouble finds you? well ... sometimes you can't help being on the ground!

"Some say the moves are brutal, but in answer to that, unless you have experienced a situation where your strength is ebbing, your arms feel like lead, your guts feel sick and you have a larger, heavier opponent lying on you, you will have to know and use the techniques mentioned. "

to experience that is the affect that realistic (aka sport grappling) training on a regular basis will have on you. a healthy respect and appreciation of your own skills and physical limitations, and the capability of others. i wouldn't describe those techniques as being necessarily brutal, in the sense that they are often being applied by the physically and/or technically inferior person . those things are survival instinct, any animal will claw and bite if backed into a corner, but note that it doesn't really keep it from become the lunch of the superior predator. i would describe those techniques as being brutal if they were being performed by the person who understood what they were doing and was in control of the situation ...

"Wrestling and Judo pins are not much good in 'real combat' they can only serve as time buying 'manoeuvres' to get into a better finishing technique"

that's exactly why those pins are essential and probably what should be spent the most time learning to develop and effectively counter - positional dominance (which is the essence of sport grappling, that's why points are awarded to that) without them you couldn't effectively tickle your attacker, let alone pinch/bite/gouge (uninterrupted, which is the key), or punch/knee/elbow (again, uninterrupted) or if you're feeling gracious ... simply choke them out.

"How many instructors out there grapple or spar or whatever with their instructors or students? .You will learn a lot about yourself, your belt or position won't matter once it goes down. Win or lose you will learn, if you are prepared to give it a go!"

I believe this is the norm in 95% of BJJ/MMA gyms out there. i don't know what type of training environment you're talking about, but where i come from most instructors are required to roll and spar with all their students. (I know I do - and all my friends who are instructors) its part of their duty and priviledge. besides, how can you keep true respect, honesty, and integrity in your training by doing it any other way?


I agree with your basic premise that sport grappling and defending yourself in a real life situation are two completely different scenarios. but this is obvious to most people that train realistically and have confidence in what they can and can not do. I do not however think that this at all marginalizes the importance of the grappling delivery system. Positional dominace is the key whether you are in your gym, in a tournament, NHB fight, in the parking lot. thats the common denominator and anything that isn't recognizing that (which i know, is not what you're doing) is just not based in reality.



"...and no amount of saying that it is a bad idea to go to the ground in a "real fight" will keep you from being grounded and pounded if you do not train some credible style of grappling." - John Frankl