Use of the 'Elbow strike', on the street

[HuSanYan]

Hi all,
I thought I would contribute some thoughts about the all important use of the 'Elbow Strike' especially in view of how popular the discussion of various kicks is, and no doubt largely due to the ever increasing popularity of MT and the Filipino and Malaysian fighting systems.

Needless to say to all on the forum, the versatile and powerful elbow has been around for a very long time in all martial arts, but I feel has not been used to it’s full potential.

In the Kempo Goshin Jutsu system, the elbow is used in many unusual and extremely devastating ways. In fact I would say the system carries (arguably of course!) the biggest array of elbow techniques known in the martial arts. Kempo Goshin Jutsu is a modern and progressive combat system; its roots are in the old Jujutsu of the Japanese Samurai and is solely an art of self-protection.

It has no sporting elements whatsoever (I may have mentioned this fact in another thread). Although the system keeps the traditional values and disciplines of the ancient Jujutsu, it recognizes that times change and so do the threats of violence, so technique must be modified to suit the needs of our urban environment.

The system contains a vast syllabus of strikes, throws, takedowns, locks, chokes, breaks etc. and the elbow is one of its favorite weapons. Most street fights go very quickly into grappling range or if you are attacked by surprise it will already be close up action. This is where the Kempo elbow strikes come into their own.

They are used in an accurate and flowing fashion, using linear and circular motion. They will come in from all angles and hit practically anywhere on the body, some totally unexpected and they can combine into bone breaking throws or locks. The elbows are literally the body’s battering rams, they are naturally hard and toughened areas and by honing them on the heavy bag or Makiwara they will become lethal weapons!

If anybody is in doubt as to how effective the blows can be, you only have to observe some of the recent nasty injuries inflicted in pro football by loose flailing elbows. These incidents showed footballers inflicting damage with the elbows. They were not trained martial artists who knew how to strike with proper power, focus accuracy and speed, that should tell just how dangerous and effective the strike can be.

Lets look at the different ways the elbow can be used in a serious self-defense situation. As mentioned earlier, the beauty of the elbow is that it can travel at every conceivable angle to strike your attacker.

The upward rising elbow at close range can be an unexpected and powerful shot, the target area is the end of the chin. It can cause your attacker anything from chipped teeth and bitten tongue, to neck whiplash or an instant knockout.
It can also be used as a strike to the sternum bone for a set-up to a throw or lock. A surprise move with this blow is either when you are on the floor or in a deep crouch. You bring the blow up in the same rising fashion to slam between opponent’s legs up into the testicles for a lovely finishing move.

The downward elbow can smash into the back of the skull and the cervical vertebrae of the neck or between the shoulder blades into the thoracic vertebrae of the spine, emptying the lungs of air. Also it can strike the kidneys, all these target areas can be exposed when an opponent is pulled and bent over double, usually after a groin shot to set him up. The downward elbow can also smash into the face, throat or sternum when you lever your attacker slightly backwards. Grabbing the back of an attacker’s hair, then driving an elbow into the sternum followed by an inner or outer leg reap is a great combination.
The downward elbow can also be used to great effect on the arms if grabbed by the lapels. You can smash the point of the elbow right into the top of the bicep, splitting the muscle to paralyze the arm instantly breaking the grip. It can also strike the triceps muscle on the back of the arm where it inserts into the elbow joint, again to paralyze the arm or to dislocate the elbow joint. It’s a great technique to disarm against a weapon.

The horizontal elbow is next up. It can whip in to strike temples, jaw or neck from the front, also sternum or solar plexus. If you change the angle slightly it can cut in a downward arc across the temple to chin or the other way from the jaw hinge to nose.

These blows again from close quarter grabbing attacks are extremely effective and hard to stop; they batter their way through. For a rear attack, the base of the skull and the kidneys are prime targets for the horizontal elbow.

Side elbow will come in from any angle. From the front with the lead arm it can piston out into sternum, solar plexus or throat. Or kneeling or crouched, into bladder and groin area. From the sides it can attack the temples, floating ribs or kidneys, coming over or under opponents guard.
Back elbows work to great effect when held or grabbed from the rear. The straight back elbow can be jabbed back from the hip aiming for sternum, solar plexus or groin. Rapid fire them to break hold for a follow up.

Back hooking elbow can strike the head if grabbed under the arms or into the floating ribs if grabbed around the neck. To execute, pivot from the hips firing the elbows in a hooking fashion. If attacker moves his head away from one hooking elbow, follow immediately with one from the other arm.

Also in the Kempo Goshin Jutsu system are some sophisticated and unusual elbow strikes. The upward vertical elbow is a beautiful unseen shot. One way to execute it is if you are grabbed from behind, you drive the straight back elbow into the solar plexus then immediately drop the elbow into a claw hand to the testicles (again, a favorite of gay boy crazyjoe380, lol). As opponent lurches forward, rip up on the groin, bringing the elbow in a vertical plane straight up under the chin, it is a great surprise knockout combination.

Spinning elbows are used to excellent effect and in many ways. Done correctly with proper footwork, timing and accuracy, they are devastating. Spinning into a front target offers you the sternum, solar plexus or face, sending the opponent backwards or forwards into a sweep, choke or neck lock. Spinning to the rear striking spine or kidneys sets up a multitude of Kempo Goshin Jutsu takedowns or strangles.

Spinning elbows can be very fast and carry a great deal of power from the body pivoting. One of the overlooked target areas for elbow strikes is the legs. In my system we exploit this fact often and painfully. Many leg take downs can be used from striking downward into the front of the thigh, deadening the muscle and setting them up for a crippling lock and throw. Blasting the inside or outside of the knee joints whilst crouched or kneeling will upend any opponent no matter how big.

Trapping opponent’s ankle and smashing front of knee with a horizontal elbow will send him crashing to the floor. Ducking a punch and driving a side elbow into the outside of the outer thigh brings a whole new dimension to the term ‘dead leg’. There are many unusual throws and take downs incorporating the elbow. Against kicks, trapping the leg and smashing the elbows into thigh, knee joint os nerve points between calf muscle and shinbone can take the fight out of the best kickers. Combine it with a Kempo sweep or throw and the fight is over.

When the fight goes to the floor, dropping onto your opponent with an elbow certainly gives you the advantage. Downward blows to the sternum, solar plexus or ribs can give you the upper hand. Driving elbows again into the nerve points on the legs can break holds and render your opponent helpless in a floor grapple as can the muscle attacks to the arms, sandwiching the arm between your elbow strike and the floor.

The point and side of the elbow can affect deadly chokes and strangles on the floor when pressed deeply into the carotid arteries or the trachea. Also grinding the elbow into the temples or sternum bone, will also gain a release in a wrestling situation. If you train the elbow it can be used from any position or angle. Standing, kneeling or prone on the floor. If you have a large six-foot punch bag you can train and sharpen all the mentioned elbow strikes developing proper accuracy, power and focus. Work to use them in quick blasting combinations right up close to the bag as if it was an opponent.

As mentioned the Kempo Goshin Jutsu system uses them in conjunction with many throws, chokes and breaks in a flowing and continuous fashion, too numerous to mention in one post.

So if you are practicing martial arts do not over look this strike. As most trouble will start close up or in a crowded place (i.e. club, bar) you will be glad you have this natural and versatile weapon to give your assailant the point.

If this has been discussed in a previous thread then I apologize, I did do a search but haven’t really come across an in depth thread about the elbow. Just looking to share some thoughts.
What do you think guys???

[ryanhall]

HuSanYan,

Very good post. Elbows are great close quarters weapons that are really underused in a lot of systems. I likede everything excapt the spinning and the crouching ideas. Spinning isn't safe, and crouching, there are better tools if you find yourself there. What's up with the elbows to the knees/legs? You don't punch the knee just because it's a good target. I would keep the upper body to the upper body and the lower to the lower. Don't do the classic martial artist thing and "techniquify" everything. Just go for the "hit him with an elbow so it hurts a lot." Less to think about


Ryan

[jmd161]

I liked everything except the spinning and the crouching ideas. Spinning isn't safe, and crouching, there are better tools if you find yourself there.

That's very true ,but if you have speed and a good sense of timing a spinning elbow can be very effective.

" VERY " !

jmd161

[ryanhall]

Jmd161,

You wrote:

That's very true ,but if you have speed and a good sense of timing a spinning elbow can be very effective.

Spinning techniques are powerful because they crank the entire weight of the body behind a blow. Unfortunately, timing and rhythm (so important to spinning attacks) doesn't really exist in a street fight. Things happen and then they are over. It's not a drawn-out match, but an explosion. Just think how tough it is to land a spinning elbow in a Thai match. That's in a ring with rules and two boxers that square off to fight, not you and some punk who wants your wallet or your health. Spinning is dangerous because it is slower and it presents your back to an assailant--never a good idea.


Ryan

[jmd161]

Originally posted by ryanhall
Spinning is dangerous because it is slower and it presents your back to an assailant--never a good idea.


Ryan

Ryan,

That is true ,but you're talking form an experienced martial artist view.On the street you'll be surprised by what works and does'nt work.I know from experience i've tried things that ppl would never try in a fight.So far they have all worked some of them 100% of the time.You catch the person by surprise ,and that second they take to try and figure out whats going on you've ended the fight.

Long before i got into martial arts i studied fights.I don't know why i did this it just kinda happened.From a small child i would watch street fights.Not like everyone else i always watched to see what each person was doing.When a person got into something he could not get out of etc.....I would go home and have friends put me in these positions and i'd try and get out of them.I never wanted to be at someone's mercy in a fight ,and it's always stuck with me.So i've learned little techniques over the yrs that work in every situation because ppl don't expect you to do them.Also you have to know how to set them up.You don't just try these kinda moves without a set up.

jmd161

[ryanhall]

jmd161,

You wrote:

That is true ,but you're talking form an experienced martial artist view.On the street you'll be surprised by what works and does'nt work.I know from experience i've tried things that ppl would never try in a fight.So far they have all worked some of them 100% of the time.You catch the person by surprise ,and that second they take to try and figure out whats going on you've ended the fight.

I beg to differ. I don't really like to consider myself a martial artist, so I'll use the term 'fighter' instead. To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised by what works and what doesn't, because I've seen it and done it. Tried things that nobody would ever do? I don't want to make an uninformed comment, so I would appreciate it if you would elaborate on what you mean here. A lot of things that people "never do" are not done for a reason--they don't work. Spinning heel kicks, dancing around like Mohammed Ali, and talking a lot of sh!t when you aren't prepared to man up will get you killed. To be honest, I wouldn't be able to believe you if you told me that you had used a deadly system of Gung Fu to leave 7 Latin Kings in various states of dismemberment. Please respond so that I have a better idea of what you are talking about.

Everyone has different experiences, but I can tell you that the only things that work nearly 100% of the time is speed, surprise, and violence of action. That would involve verbally setting someone or some ones up for a non-telegraphic first strike, hitting hard and fast, and keeping the pressure on. Like you said, THAT is what ends the fight--not a spinning elbow or *insert technique.* The technique(s) and range(s) used are incidental. The mentality and tactics of the fighter are what carries someone through safely.

I never wanted to be at someone's mercy in a fight ,and it's always stuck with me.So i've learned little techniques over the yrs that work in every situation because ppl don't expect you to do them.Also you have to know how to set them up.You don't just try these kinda moves without a set up.

I too do my fair share of academic research. Nothing works in every situation. There are few absolutes in combat. Thinking that you know what will "always" work can get you hurt very badly. As Richard Dimitri and Sammy Franco (some people you should listen to if you are interested in real life self-defense) say, "the word 'always' should be removed from your self-defense vocabulary." It always depends. Once again, you refer to a set up. Please elaborate on what kind of set up you are speaking of, and what "these kinda moves" are. My version of a set-up is a deescalation stance and a web hand to the throat or a palm heel to the jaw, or a hammerfist to the nose--the list goes on. These things work. I don't care what kind of set-up someone pulls, trying a flying sidekick will get you curbed and shot/kicked in the head repeatedly/*insert bad thing that could happen.*

This thread could become interesting. I would appreciate your point of view.

Ryan

[jmd161]

I'll give you one that has worked everytime i've used it.Infact i showed it to a couple of friends and they live by it.They've also told me that it has worked everytime they use it.

It's simple to use and results in a knockout everytime.Not because of power ,but because of the surprise of the attack.If you know anything about boxing you know that most knockouts occur because the person never saw the punch comming.It's not just from power.

The technique can be used as a counter or as an attack.It's gonna be hard with out showing you ,but i'll do my best to explain.

You are in front of your opponent he throws a left cross at your face.What you do is drop to about his chest level.At the sametime you're moving to your left away from the blow.His attention is drawn down to your movement.While still moving to your left you start to rise while throwing a overhand right to his head.This movement is done in one movement you don't pause or you'll give up you advantage of surprise.The opponent never sees the overhand right to the left side of his face. Because your quick drop and move to your left draws his attention down and to his right so it's like a blind side sack on a quarterback.

You'll have to try it to fully understand how this attack works 100% of the time ,but it does.Iv'e shown this to martial arts teachers and they could'nt believe how simple and effective it was.The secret is to do it in one quick motion.You would never try this twice on the same person ,but if it's done right you should'nt have to use it twice.I have used it in sparring situations more than twice on the same person ,but i don't suggest you try that in a fight.

jmd161

[ryanhall]

I respect your opinion, but we're going to have to agree to disagree here. There is no perfect technique that "works 100% of the time." The fact that you stand by this really does point to a lack of real world experience *braces for tirade.* A lot of things sound great in theory, but crumble in application. How can you be sure that you will be able to avoid his cross that you somehow knew that he would throw. Does it mean anything to you that you are slipping in the wrong direction (into the punch)? One slips to the dead side for a reason.

You'll have to try it to fully understand how this attack works 100% of the time ,but it does.Iv'e shown this to martial arts teachers and they could'nt believe how simple and effective it was.

Frankly, a lot of martial arts teachers couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. This is not simple, as it involves a series of events to transpire perfectly according to plan. Try it against anyone exept a one-punch-wonder, and I doubt you'll hold it in the same high esteem. Aside from the idea of letting the opponent hit first being extremely unwise, you are betting that you have the ability to KO anyone. You don't. Nobody does. How's this for an example: I've seen people take a web hand strike to the throat unexpectedly and keep on fighting. I guarantee that a throat shot is 10x more damaging than any punch to the face, and if they can deal with that, they can take your best shot as well. Just putting things in perspective.

I don't know how much further this thread will carry, as we're already way off topic, but thank you for sharing your ideas/opinions.

Ryan

[jmd161]

Originally posted by ryanhall
I respect your opinion, but we're going to have to agree to disagree here. A lot of things sound great in theory, but crumble in application. How can you be sure that you will be able to avoid his cross that you somehow knew that he would throw. Does it mean anything to you that you are slipping in the wrong direction (into the punch)? One slips to the dead side for a reason.

Ryan

I agree we will agree to disagree .

Ryan i just gave an example you asked for an example i gave you one.If you read my post i said it's good for attack or counter.It's easy to pick apart any technique sitting in front of a computer screen.This is the reason i started to avoid this all together.If you wanna talk things from a fighting point of view? Then i'm all for it ,but if your someone that sits behind a keyboard and claims to be a fighter then hey i don't have time or patience for that.

There are keyboard warriors on every forum on the internet i hope you're not one? Yes you are going in the direction of the blow! What do you think would happen if you went the opposite direction? You run into the blow making it twice as effective.You have two hands right? I only told you what you were doing with one. also if you go the other way you give up your entire centerline to a counter attack.Do you think that is better?

A lot of things sound great in theory, but crumble in application.

I've used it in application it was never a theory.The way i came across it was through watching it being used in pro boxing matchs.It's the same technique Ken Norton used to knockout his opponent when he won the World Championship.It's also the punch Joe Frazier used when he broke Ali's Jaw.It also used to be a favorite technique of Mike Tyson.It was just used a little differently in each case ,but it was still the same a quick dodge to draw their attention and a overhand right.

Anyhoo i'm gonna end this because i don't think you wanna talk fighting strateiges.I think you just wanna sit back and rip techniques apart.I could be wrong? If i am? hey my bad!! no offense to you ,but i've found there are alot of ppl that go to websites for that.It's the reason my sihing does'nt go to martial arts forums.He has told me to do the same ,but i love martial arts it's a addiction.

jmd161

[ryanhall]

It's easy to pick apart any technique sitting in front of a computer screen.This is the reason i started to avoid this all together.If you wanna talk things from a fighting point of view? Then i'm all for it ,but if your someone that sits behind a keyboard and claims to be a fighter then hey i don't have time or patience for that

My purpose was not to nitpick, but to float the idea that nothing works 100% of the time. The fact that you chose to selectively quote me to support your view isn't my problem. I do not consier myself a keyboard commando, but if telling you that you are mistaken is taken as such, then I don't think I have anything else to say. When you put something in writing, it loses a lot in translation. However, when you start in with "blah, blah, blah, set-up...this move is unbeatable" and waiting for someone else to throw the first punch so that you can execute your pre-planned counter, I can tell that you havn't the faintest idea about real life survival. You can tell your sihing that I said so.

Yes you are going in the direction of the blow! What do you think would happen if you went the opposite direction?

Case in point: your boxing knowledge leaves something to be desired. When you move into a blow, it becomes less powerful (assuming that it has not reached full extension). It's simple physics. On a linear punch, one usually slips to the "dead" (outside) side. You don't do this on a hook/haymaker. Just because someone does something successfully doesn't make it gospel. Are you have the puncher that Joe Frazier was?

I didn't want to bitch about this technique or that technique. I merely pointed out that waiting for the opponent to make the first move is dangerous, as is assuming that you will be able to do what you want to if he does.


Ryan

[jmd161]

Ryan,

Did i say you had to wait for a counter?

Case in point: your boxing knowledge leaves something to be desired. When you move into a blow, it becomes less powerful (assuming that it has not reached full extension)? It's simple physics.

So all knockouts come from punches that have been fully extended.Ok i guess my boxing knowledge does leave something to be desired.So i guess i don't have to worry abot a uppercut or hook as long as it does'nt reach full extension?

when you start in with "blah, blah, blah, set-up...this move is unbeatable" and waiting for someone else to throw the first punch so that you can execute your pre-planned counter, I can tell that you havn't the faintest idea about real life survival.

" this move is unbeatable " You know the funniest thing happened there.I don't remember typing that and when i searched the past post i could'nt find that.So where did you get that from? I said it has worked 100% of the time that i've used it.I also said if done right with speed,technique,and surprise it will work 100% of the time.I never said it was unbeatable.You are right " When you put something in writing, it loses a lot in translation. " I don't remember saying that you had to wait to execute a perfect counter.I just gave one example yet you got so many different meanings from it.

I didn't want to bitch about this technique or that technique. I merely pointed out that waiting for the opponent to make the first move is dangerous, as is assuming that you will be able to do what you want to if he does.

Why are you taking what i said word for word about waiting for the punch?I was trying to do my best to explain the technique in directions that you should understand ,and you're busy talking about everything else.If i was using it on someone it would be an attack a quick first strike.I just explained it as a counter which i've also done,but i prefer to attack with this technique.Like i said it surprises your attacker more than anything.

And if you know anything about fighting you know you want the element of surprise on your side.

jmd161

[da_mill]

scuse me for being stupid but whats going on with the punch. I cant even get around that? Lol, the guy is orthodox stance throwing a left jab right?

Therefore, you are sidestepping to the right (outside) and hitting them with an overhand right? I must be missing something somewhere? Lol sorry

[robertlee]

As each fight is fought different the use of the tools change in the timing. Can not decide befoere hand what is going to work just use the tools as they expose there self. A dropping rising punch can be useful against different attacks but it depends On the in coming strike left or right lead other fighters skill level. The reounded tools that work in most cases will do in most fights. To sat a pattern of use leads to failure. Surprise sometimes is the best defence. As the person was caught off gaurd. That may be your 100%. A gain timing plays into that role also. Drills allow a setup where sparring test the efectiveness of the use. Both have there place in learning and doing. A boxer tries to to put a fighting method togethr as he attempts to fight the fight this works sometimes and not sometimes depending on how well the other fighter reads the the fight to Thats learning and doing also

[jmd161]

How is it that i type one thing and everyone see's something else?

Now somehow da_mill see's a left jab i never typed left jab ,but somehow he see's that in my post.Also where did i type the guy is in orthodox stance? I tried to give an example of a technique in a manner i thought everyone could understand ,but i did'nt know i was talking to " Expereienced battlefied Generals " .

As the person was caught off gaurd. That may be your 100%.

robertlee,

I think you understand what i'm saying.I was not trying to set a pattern of use.I gave an example of a way of using the technique ,and these guys jumped all over it trying to disect it.There are many ways to use this technique it's not set in stone to use it this way.

A dropping rising punch can be useful against different attacks but it depends On the in coming strike left or right lead other fighters skill level.

Exactly it does'nt have to be a overhand right it works to the left also ,but it does'nt have to be a counter it works as an attack as well.It seems to me that everyone is looking at this from a in the ring type of mind. The chances of you fighting a person with a highly developed skill level in the street is very rare.Not because they are not out there ,but because they're not going to get into many fights.

jmd161

[da_mill]

rightttttt, sok someone explain the punch lol

Now somehow da_mill see's a left jab i never typed left jab ,but somehow he see's that in my post.Also where did i type the guy is in orthodox stance

You actaully typed "left cross" if i remember correctly, (which I probably don't!) so I was guessing you meant left jab - because a left cross would mean a southpaw stance (the right hand would be the jab)...

or am i totally confusing the issue ? (sorry lol )