Gracie Jiu-Jitsu vs. BJJ - Page 2

JaredExtreme · 12-31-2002, 07:41 PM

NaffDAVE, you need to be more sensitive to sarcasm.

akja · 01-01-2003, 04:17 PM

Not to dis Helio and his sons intentionally but the best GJJ fighters to come out of their camp are the Gracies themselves. I haven't seen anything close to that from their students. Although some are great in thier own right but I'm talking percentages.

Carlson Gracie on the other hand, was a top fighter and has produced many of the top BJJ fighters, sport and Vale Tudo. And also created probably the best fight team of our generation.

I know that the story goes that "most of the Gracies" trained under Helio at one time or another but you have to give credit where credit is due! Carlson Gracies instructor was his father, Carlos Gracie!

http://www.bjj.org/family.html

Helio has said that there are good and bad BJJ instructors. I think that sums it up pretty good!

NAJJFDAVE · 01-01-2003, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by akja
Carlson Gracies instructor was his father, Carlos Gracie!

But not his only instructor.

akja · 01-01-2003, 10:12 PM

But who promoted and certified Carlson? And why does he call his art "Carlson Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" and not "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu"? Rorion Kind of shut them out a bit with the copy right process. He protected their identity but with the high number of Gracies that know Jiu-Jitsu are blocked by the copy right and then Helio says that it all came through him. Shouldn't the copy right not effect them? To the public its kind of like double talk.

This is just an outsiders view.

NAJJFDAVE · 01-01-2003, 11:07 PM

Don't know much about all that, except I'm sure Rorion had his reasons to do what he thought was best. Anyway, it was Rorion and Royce's hard work that made the Gracies known in the US. I'd want to protect myself from a cousin with the same last name from taking away business from me when he decides to come to my neck of the woods and set up shop. This is essentially what happened soon after the first UFC.

An example would be that after years of me and my cousins washing the neighbors cars, I start Howe's car wash. I've always thought that I washed the cars the best. So I started my own business and opened a location. And I wash cars so good at Howe's Car Wash that people travel half a day for the wash. Now my cousin decides...hey Daves really making some coin with this car wash business...and he decides to set up a car wash with the same name to cash in on some of my success. I'd be pretty pissed but I'd also be stupid if I didn't look for a way to protect my business.

We may have all washed the neighborhoods cars together but this business I started is mine. I made the Howe name famous with car washing in my business. My cousins didn't give me a loan or go in as partners with me...it's all mine. Why should I give a piece of that up. Let them go out and start their businesses under a different name and be successful in their own right.

crazyjoe380 · 01-01-2003, 11:12 PM

its all the same

the way carlson gracie refers to his jiu jitsu is "his own blend of jiu jitsu" but it's the same all around. jiu jitsu evolved so hardcore that it's just on how the teacher is. some bjj instructors mix it with wrestling and give it an american flavor to it. it's all on the teacher.

akja · 01-01-2003, 11:43 PM

I would of done the same. My only exposure in bjj is through Joe Moreira's student here in San Jose. Joe comes up every 2-3 months so I've gotten to know him a bit. I've moved on from the local bjj school and plan on going to L.A. to train. You know the BJJ opportunies down there! I'm going down to train with George Kirby of Budoshin Jujitsu and while I'm down there I want to go to Joe's school too. If I didn't know Joe already I would try to hook up with the "Torrance Academy". Maybe another time or maybe with Rickson. Aint California great?

Hermosa · 05-04-2004, 07:30 PM

Well you know its funny how Rorions mind works. 15 years ago Rigan and Carlos Machado worked for Rorion and wore Gracie Academy gis and taught a good chunk of the classes at the gracie academy. They were "Gracie jiu-jitsu instructors"...suddenly one day they we'ren't and they were kicked out and threatened with law suits if they ever tried to teach GJJ. The Machado bros. never in a million years wanted to call what they did "Machado Jiu-jitsu"
but they were left with no choice if they were to be able to make a living..which of course is what Rorions' whole objective was...nobody makes a living at this stuff but me.

Rigan told me to my face that he felt very silly calling it Machado jiu-jitsu..He originally wanted to name his academy "Carlos Gracie jr. jiu-jitsu" but Carlos jr. actually encouraged him to build his own name.

Despite all this I love Helio, he is my inspiration and I will admit they've got a good teaching progression over there...But they are a little outdated in some areas. After all Helio still thinks he can beat Minotauro!!

gracilva · 05-05-2004, 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyjoe380

its all the same

the way carlson gracie refers to his jiu jitsu is "his own blend of jiu jitsu" but it's the same all around. jiu jitsu evolved so hardcore that it's just on how the teacher is. some bjj instructors mix it with wrestling and give it an american flavor to it. it's all on the teacher.

Spot on......

pstevens · 05-05-2004, 10:26 AM

NAJJFDAVE,

I think you would do better to understand why there are differences between BJJ and GJJ, rather than just believe that GJJ is more organized, better, etc... I've done both, and you know what? There are differences and similarities between every BJJ gym, GJJ or BJJ.

Differences don't automatically make a technique or style any less effective. You will find that every instructor has his own preferences. The truth is, BJJ has moved beyond Helio Gracie. It's an entity in itself. As far as I know, Carlson Gracie Jr. is the only dominant force in Brazil at this moment. BJJ has been developing with or without the Gracies for some time now.

If you truly believe that GJJ is this fine network of elite practitioners, then you should really get out more. Every gym is filled with the same kind of people.

Paul

Hermosa · 05-05-2004, 05:44 PM

I'm sure just a simple mistake..Carlson Gracie Jr is no force whatsoever in Brazil. But Carlos Gracie jr. (head of Gracie Barra) is the absolute man!

CrushingFist · 05-10-2004, 12:30 AM

So for conclusion GJJ would be better to learn if you're looking for the real thing?

TylerDurden · 05-10-2004, 09:56 AM

The difference is a trade mark nothing else. Anyone in the US using the GJJ name has to pay Rorion for it. My BJJ teacher was a student ot Rickson's, and the head of our school system is a Rickson Black Belt. Pedro Sauer was a student of Rickson's as well I believe, but all his schools are considered BJJ schools. Somehow I am pretty sure Rickson is pure Gracie lineage and his students get pretty top notch instruction.

CrushingFist · 05-10-2004, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TylerDurden

The difference is a trade mark nothing else. Anyone in the US using the GJJ name has to pay Rorion for it. My BJJ teacher was a student ot Rickson's, and the head of our school system is a Rickson Black Belt. Pedro Sauer was a student of Rickson's as well I believe, but all his schools are considered BJJ schools. Somehow I am pretty sure Rickson is pure Gracie lineage and his students get pretty top notch instruction.

Is true what I read I think it was from Carlson Gracie site, that BJJ is not only ground fighting but its a complete martial art?

So for example somebody teaching GJJ will be teaching under a core, but BJJ don't?

TylerDurden · 05-10-2004, 10:15 AM

I am not sure how Carlson's schools work. Different instructors have different approaches to teaching. I would not hesitate to train under a Carlson Gracie instructor though, I have never heard anything negative about his schools.

12-31-2002, 07:41 PM	#16 (permalink)
JaredExtreme Registered User Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 1,115 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	NaffDAVE, you need to be more sensitive to sarcasm. __________________ "I don't fight in the street, there's no mats out there." - JaredExtreme

01-01-2003, 04:17 PM	#17 (permalink)
akja Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Tracy, Ca. Posts: 415 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	So, Gracie Jiu-Jitsu (GJJ) vs. BJJ, they are different but how? Not to dis Helio and his sons intentionally but the best GJJ fighters to come out of their camp are the Gracies themselves. I haven't seen anything close to that from their students. Although some are great in thier own right but I'm talking percentages. Carlson Gracie on the other hand, was a top fighter and has produced many of the top BJJ fighters, sport and Vale Tudo. And also created probably the best fight team of our generation. I know that the story goes that "most of the Gracies" trained under Helio at one time or another but you have to give credit where credit is due! Carlson Gracies instructor was his father, Carlos Gracie! http://www.bjj.org/family.html Helio has said that there are good and bad BJJ instructors. I think that sums it up pretty good! __________________ Academy of Kempo Ju Jitsu & Association http://www.scientific-streetfighting.com/ "If people say Jeet Kune Do is different from "this" or from "that," then let the name of Jeet Kune Do be wiped out, for that is what it is, just a name. Please don't fuss over it." -----Great SiGung Bruce Lee-----

01-01-2003, 10:12 PM	#19 (permalink)
akja Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Tracy, Ca. Posts: 415 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	But who promoted and certified Carlson? And why does he call his art "Carlson Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" and not "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu"? Rorion Kind of shut them out a bit with the copy right process. He protected their identity but with the high number of Gracies that know Jiu-Jitsu are blocked by the copy right and then Helio says that it all came through him. Shouldn't the copy right not effect them? To the public its kind of like double talk. This is just an outsiders view. __________________ Academy of Kempo Ju Jitsu & Association http://www.scientific-streetfighting.com/ "If people say Jeet Kune Do is different from "this" or from "that," then let the name of Jeet Kune Do be wiped out, for that is what it is, just a name. Please don't fuss over it." -----Great SiGung Bruce Lee-----

01-01-2003, 11:07 PM	#20 (permalink)
NAJJFDAVE Novice Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Frederick, Maryland Posts: 31 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Don't know much about all that, except I'm sure Rorion had his reasons to do what he thought was best. Anyway, it was Rorion and Royce's hard work that made the Gracies known in the US. I'd want to protect myself from a cousin with the same last name from taking away business from me when he decides to come to my neck of the woods and set up shop. This is essentially what happened soon after the first UFC. An example would be that after years of me and my cousins washing the neighbors cars, I start Howe's car wash. I've always thought that I washed the cars the best. So I started my own business and opened a location. And I wash cars so good at Howe's Car Wash that people travel half a day for the wash. Now my cousin decides...hey Daves really making some coin with this car wash business...and he decides to set up a car wash with the same name to cash in on some of my success. I'd be pretty pissed but I'd also be stupid if I didn't look for a way to protect my business. We may have all washed the neighborhoods cars together but this business I started is mine. I made the Howe name famous with car washing in my business. My cousins didn't give me a loan or go in as partners with me...it's all mine. Why should I give a piece of that up. Let them go out and start their businesses under a different name and be successful in their own right. __________________ Yours in jujitsu, David Howe

01-01-2003, 11:12 PM	#21 (permalink)
crazyjoe380 Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,368 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	its all the same the way carlson gracie refers to his jiu jitsu is "his own blend of jiu jitsu" but it's the same all around. jiu jitsu evolved so hardcore that it's just on how the teacher is. some bjj instructors mix it with wrestling and give it an american flavor to it. it's all on the teacher. __________________

01-01-2003, 11:43 PM	#22 (permalink)
akja Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Tracy, Ca. Posts: 415 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	I would of done the same. My only exposure in bjj is through Joe Moreira's student here in San Jose. Joe comes up every 2-3 months so I've gotten to know him a bit. I've moved on from the local bjj school and plan on going to L.A. to train. You know the BJJ opportunies down there! I'm going down to train with George Kirby of Budoshin Jujitsu and while I'm down there I want to go to Joe's school too. If I didn't know Joe already I would try to hook up with the "Torrance Academy". Maybe another time or maybe with Rickson. Aint California great? __________________ Academy of Kempo Ju Jitsu & Association http://www.scientific-streetfighting.com/ "If people say Jeet Kune Do is different from "this" or from "that," then let the name of Jeet Kune Do be wiped out, for that is what it is, just a name. Please don't fuss over it." -----Great SiGung Bruce Lee-----

05-04-2004, 07:30 PM	#23 (permalink)
Hermosa Registered User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Colorado Posts: 151 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well you know its funny how Rorions mind works. 15 years ago Rigan and Carlos Machado worked for Rorion and wore Gracie Academy gis and taught a good chunk of the classes at the gracie academy. They were "Gracie jiu-jitsu instructors"...suddenly one day they we'ren't and they were kicked out and threatened with law suits if they ever tried to teach GJJ. The Machado bros. never in a million years wanted to call what they did "Machado Jiu-jitsu" but they were left with no choice if they were to be able to make a living..which of course is what Rorions' whole objective was...nobody makes a living at this stuff but me. Rigan told me to my face that he felt very silly calling it Machado jiu-jitsu..He originally wanted to name his academy "Carlos Gracie jr. jiu-jitsu" but Carlos jr. actually encouraged him to build his own name. Despite all this I love Helio, he is my inspiration and I will admit they've got a good teaching progression over there...But they are a little outdated in some areas. After all Helio still thinks he can beat Minotauro!! __________________ Do your best to add years to your life, but don't forget to add life to your years. ---Deepak Chopra

05-05-2004, 10:26 AM	#25 (permalink)
pstevens Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 333 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	NAJJFDAVE, I think you would do better to understand why there are differences between BJJ and GJJ, rather than just believe that GJJ is more organized, better, etc... I've done both, and you know what? There are differences and similarities between every BJJ gym, GJJ or BJJ. Differences don't automatically make a technique or style any less effective. You will find that every instructor has his own preferences. The truth is, BJJ has moved beyond Helio Gracie. It's an entity in itself. As far as I know, Carlson Gracie Jr. is the only dominant force in Brazil at this moment. BJJ has been developing with or without the Gracies for some time now. If you truly believe that GJJ is this fine network of elite practitioners, then you should really get out more. Every gym is filled with the same kind of people. Paul

05-05-2004, 05:44 PM	#26 (permalink)
Hermosa Registered User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Colorado Posts: 151 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	I'm sure just a simple mistake..Carlson Gracie Jr is no force whatsoever in Brazil. But Carlos Gracie jr. (head of Gracie Barra) is the absolute man! __________________ Do your best to add years to your life, but don't forget to add life to your years. ---Deepak Chopra

05-10-2004, 12:30 AM	#27 (permalink)
CrushingFist Registered User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: New York, NY Posts: 57 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	So for conclusion GJJ would be better to learn if you're looking for the real thing? __________________ ~Thanks Those Who Can See The Invisible Can Do The Impossible Using No Way, As Way Having No Limitation, As Limitation

05-10-2004, 09:56 AM	#28 (permalink)
TylerDurden Registered User Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 161 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	The difference is a trade mark nothing else. Anyone in the US using the GJJ name has to pay Rorion for it. My BJJ teacher was a student ot Rickson's, and the head of our school system is a Rickson Black Belt. Pedro Sauer was a student of Rickson's as well I believe, but all his schools are considered BJJ schools. Somehow I am pretty sure Rickson is pure Gracie lineage and his students get pretty top notch instruction.

05-10-2004, 10:15 AM	#30 (permalink)
TylerDurden Registered User Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 161 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	I am not sure how Carlson's schools work. Different instructors have different approaches to teaching. I would not hesitate to train under a Carlson Gracie instructor though, I have never heard anything negative about his schools.

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