Grappling's main disadvantage - not true?

[Dave3006]

Szczepankiewicz, you missed the point too. Whether you are a stand up fighter or a grappler, you would be a fool to be in a fight where others could join in. It does not matter what your style is. There is no good solution to this problem short of adding weapons to the equation.

[Szczepankiewicz]

How did I miss the point? I didn't summarize your argument, nor did I pose a counterargument. I presented a scenario that could be used to demonstrate the cogency of your argument

I take it from your lack of response that your 'arms broken' tally is somewhere near zero?


Now, responding to your post, I believe that your statement is inclusive of every fight.: 'you would be a fool to be in a fight where others could join in'

I have stated my beliefs concerning this topic on other threads and don't care to rehash what I've already said, unless you specifically want to address my premises or conclusions.

Then I would be most happy to debate.

Spanky

P.S. Thanks for spelling my name right. No-one else here seems to be able to cut and paste.

[Dave3006]

The biker bar comment demonstrated the lack of understanding about what I was talking about.

And, you know that a tally of arm breaks is totally ridiculous. Any of us could easily break our training partners arm by going too far. What does that prove?

I did have my arm put out of commission by a brown belt when I first started training. He did a Juji Gatame and cranked it WAY too far. I did not have time to tap. The elbow popped three times and I could not use it for over 7 months. It really sucked. Hurt too.

[Szczepankiewicz]

When you talk about going to places and breaking peoples arms, then yes, I believe it is important as to whether you've actually broken someone's arm or not.


I can wax poetic all the live long day about how I would shoot someone, but I've never actually done it and can't say with any certainty whether I am psychologically prepared to do such a thing (See also, eye gouging and other theories on 'real' self defense techniques). Hence the major difference between rasslin in the dojo and doing whatever it takes to escape a nasty situation on 'Da Street'. Anyone of us could acutally pull the trigger on a firearm, but would you, could you... in a box???


Now, let's get to your initial post:

Think about it. When you consider the person you will most likely get in a fight with on the street, it is not a trained BJJ or Gracie grappler. 95 times out of 100, it will be some drunk idiot who has at the most probably boxed in his neighbor's garage. He will know close to nothing about submissions and probably be in mediocre shape.

In my opinion, your local biker bar would be an excellent place to find such a worthy test subject.

I would like to make the case that a person like the one I just described could, most times, be brought down and have his arm broken in less than 5 seconds after hitting the ground.... A quick takedown, American armbar, and you are back on your feet. You have more of a chance of this happening than scoring a knockout punch. And, it will be just as fast.

I think some of us think it will be just like the UFC where two trained grapplers stall for 10 minutes on the mat. I would be willing to bet a decent blue belt could tap the average guy faster than he would think.

Again, I cannot see how testing this theory in a biker bar, and reporting back to the forum is a case of 'missing the point'.

Can you point out where the point I missed is hiding?

And who the hell 'taps out' in a fight? Unless you are a frequent participant or fan of MMA or other submission grappling contests, would you even know what this means?

Spanky

[ryanhall]

Dave,

Look, my friend. The only disconnect or misinterpretation here is with you. You are impervious to logic or well-stated arguements to the contrary of your idea. Case in point:

I wrote:

the most dangerous people you can run into would probably laugh at you if you asked what their style was. Submission holds and the like are great, and I am a big fan of them. However, there are much faster ways to hurt someone on the ground than using "skill" on someone. Granted, these "dirty tricks" are tougher to pull on a skilled grappler, but they are nowhere near impossible. The next time you roll with a buddy, try this: every time you can place your hand across his face for a few seconds, you just took out some eyes and maybe an ear. Grab your training partner's hands--you just removed some fingers. If you train in jeans or shorts, try to get to your pocket--you may have just entered a weapon into the fight.

Have you just disregarded what I said because it was cryptic and too hard to understand, or do you see some truth and choose to ignore it?

A bit more:

Szczepankiewicz (I can cut and paste too) wrote:

Why don't you go to the local Biker bar, pick a fight and go to the ground. Let us know how it works out.

Your continued arguement in the face of overwhelming points to the contrary displays a total lack of understanding of real life confrontation. How about this: go read "Strong on Defense" by Sanford Strong and then you come back and talk to us. Or maybe ask a victim of violent crime. How about a cop or even a gang member since you refuse to listen to the advice of your "peers"?

You wrote:

I would like to make the case that a person like the one I just described could, most times, be brought down and have his arm broken in less than 5 seconds after hitting the ground.... A quick takedown, American armbar, and you are back on your feet. You have more of a chance of this happening than scoring a knockout punch. And, it will be just as fast.

As Spanky asked, have you ever broken someone's arm? Let me guess: NO. I bet you think that it's an easy thing to do, right? Well, when you hear that wet pop and the scream of your "victim," I bet you'll change your mind--especially when his buddies come to the rescue and give you some free plastic surgery. Only people who have never experienced violence think it is cool, fun, or easy to do. Also, NEWS FLASH: Rickson Gracie, despite his considerable accomplishments in the octagon, is far from the final word on self defense. Do you really think that the messiah of the grappling arts is going to say that it is possible to fight mulitpe opponents when his style is incapable of doing it effectively? That wouldn't be good for his bank account. I respect him as a fighter and as someone who helped propogate the importance of grappling, but I don't give a damn about what he has to say about personal protection.

Just my 54 cents.

Ryan

[Szczepankiewicz]

Excellent. If anyone else is having difficulty with the whole cut and paste dilemma, drop me a line and I'll hook you up with some online training.


Spanky

[Dave3006]

Golly, I hope you email Rickson. He could use your advise. You guys know everything. I think I will just take a pause and ponder all your wisdom.

[ryanhall]

As opposed to Rickson the Magnificent knowing everything? When I want to become the Pride champion, I'll drop him a line. Until then, I'll let you two be alone.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Now you're gettin' the picture son. Hard headed I say.

I'm gonna go email Rickson right now.....


Classic Appeal to Authority.



Still doesn't answer my question or address my proposed experiment. And if you don't like it, go talk to Jean Claude.


Spanky

[ryanhall]

Should we refer him to Sharp Phil's guide to internet trolls?

[Szczepankiewicz]

Would it do any good? I mean, gee whiz golly Ryan, I think you're missing the point here.

But Spanky, what point is that?

How the heck should I know!?


Szczepankiewicz the Point Misser

[ryanhall]

Would it do any good? I mean, gee whiz golly Ryan, I think you're missing the point here.

But Spanky, what point is that?

How the heck should I know!?

BWA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

[Szczepankiewicz]

Ryan, you insensitive prick, do you have any idea how much that stings???? You chased him off! Now I'll never get an answer to my question about where points go to hide when I freakin' miss 'em.


The unfairness of it all!

Spanky

Originally posted by Dave3006
Golly, I hope you email Rickson. He could use your advise. You guys know everything. I think I will just take a pause and ponder all your wisdom.

I thought he had you two with this one. But you beat him down good with your sparkling wit.

Keep learning from me, keep learning.

[Szczepankiewicz]

It was tough, I was starting to sweat.

Then I drew inspiration from the autographed 8x10 Glossy that you autographed for me and I came through in the clinch.....

I truly owe it all to you man.