Grappling's main disadvantage - not true?

Dave3006 · 12-31-2002, 08:09 PM

Everywhere, even on this board, you hear people talk about how bad it is to go to the ground in a street fight. People are quick to point out how you are vulnerable to kicks and strikes from bystanders. Most people, grapplers included, will agree and admit that taking the fight to the ground is not a good idea.

Is it really?

Think about it. When you consider the person you will most likely get in a fight with on the street, it is not a trained BJJ or Gracie grappler. 95 times out of 100, it will be some drunk idiot who has at the most probably boxed in his neighbor's garage. He will know close to nothing about submissions and probably be in mediocre shape.

I would like to make the case that a person like the one I just described could, most times, be brought down and have his arm broken in less than 5 seconds after hitting the ground.... A quick takedown, American armbar, and you are back on your feet. You have more of a chance of this happening than scoring a knockout punch. And, it will be just as fast.

I think some of us think it will be just like the UFC where two trained grapplers stall for 10 minutes on the mat. I would be willing to bet a decent blue belt could tap the average guy faster than he would think.

Any comments?

robertlee · 12-31-2002, 10:49 PM

Alot of street fights go to the ground. Just dont want to stay there to long get the job done get up leave.

MrPoopy · 12-31-2002, 11:53 PM

Whether people say it's good or not, if you are a trained grappler with no better striking skills than average joe, are you gonna try and duke it out with him or just take him down and break his arm? Seriously. You're either gonna run away or grapple with the guy. It just wouldn't make sense to stand there and trade blows with him.

01-01-2003, 08:13 AM

Don't forget to carry a mat with you everywhere you go.

ryanhall · 01-01-2003, 10:12 AM

This topic was just covered in detail in another thread.

Quote:

Whether people say it's good or not, if you are a trained grappler with no better striking skills than average joe, are you gonna try and duke it out with him or just take him down and break his arm? Seriously. You're either gonna run away or grapple with the guy. It just wouldn't make sense to stand there and trade blows with him.

People do what they are trained to do (sometimes). However, if you are a great wrestler that hits like a little kid, then don't go thinking you can deal with a big problem if it comes your way. Things always depend on the situation. If it's your a-hole brother in law getting out of line, you would do well NOT to break his jaw and kick him when he's down. If things are more serious, it's your own fault for not rounding out your skills. NOTE: it doesn't take a lot of training/practice to be able to deliver a good sucker punch.

Dave3006 · 01-01-2003, 10:20 AM

My original point was that a trained BJJ fighter can break the arm of a non-grappler in just a few seconds and be back on his feet.

Since most people you fight will not be Gracie purple belts, the argument about going to the ground is not valid.

H@pkid0ist · 01-01-2003, 02:10 PM

Just remember that there are more systems out there than JJ that do ground work. Just becouse there is no JJJ/BJJ school in the area doesnt mean that someone isn't skilled on the ground. And,, sometimes even the biggest Shmuck can get lucky, especially if you have to worry about their friends. Even if you have friends there to cover your back they may not be able to protect you from all the bystandartds all the time. But, Fact is fact. Majority of the time you will not fight a trained fighter or one that has enough training, when you fight. Either way extreme caution should always be used when you are on the groung, no matter haw much experience you have down there.

ryanhall · 01-01-2003, 03:17 PM

Quote:

My original point was that a trained BJJ fighter can break the arm of a non-grappler in just a few seconds and be back on his feet.

Since most people you fight will not be Gracie purple belts, the argument about going to the ground is not valid.

Wrong. Just because you can do something to an untrained person in practice doesn't make it possible in real life all the time. To believe that you are so good that no one can stand against you is a surefire way to end up getting hurt. You are correct that most people are not BJJ players. However, how many people have done some wrestling at some point in their lives? How many people are bigger and stronger than you? Everyone seems to think that their "streetfighter" will be out of shape and unskilled. Wake up call: there are LOTS of big, strong, mean, and fearless people out there that would be more than happy to prove you wrong--some of them have some skills to back the other stuff up too. The potential fight is not going to be some fairy wuss. People don't seriously stand up to you unless they think they can drop your ass.

Break a non-grappler's arm in a few seconds? Don't you think that's pretty ignorant. Here's an example you will understand. UFC 2: Karateka Minoke Ichihara and Royce Gracie roll around on the ground for about 2 minutes before Gracie gets an armbar. Ichihara had NO ground skill whatsoever, and he was 5'7'' 160 lbs. That is below average size in the USA. Just to put things in perspective.

Just because a sub hold happens right off the bat every now and then in competition doesn't make it the norm--even against an ignorant groundfighter. It's luck that the position happened to be correct for an easy submission and nothing else. Going to the ground can hurt a lot when the 'mat' is made of asphalt. I don't care who you are, groundfighting is rarely a first option.

Dave3006 · 01-01-2003, 04:31 PM

Ryan, you need to calm down a bit. I am talking about playing the odds and probabilities in a fight. Of course, there are wrestlers and some strong people out there. However, the MAJORITY of the time, you will not meet a trained ground fighter in top physical shape. The average guy has NO clue about groundfighting and he will not even know how you broke his arm. Everyone knows a little something about punching and kicking. Most people know nothing about groundfighting. Therefore, your best odds are on the ground.

There are no guarrantees ever on anything. You most likely will be completely in the dark about the other guys skills or lack thereof. The best you can do is stack the odds in your favor.

The Gracie example does not wash out because I would bet a trained fighter like Ishihara had some groundfighting skills. This is not what I am talking about. If 2 or 3 people out of 100 guys you met on the street knew what an American armbar even was, I would be surprized.

MrPoopy · 01-01-2003, 06:27 PM

Ryan, you've got to admit that Royce could have ended those early UFC fights a lot quicker than he did. He was just playing with some of those guys.

da_mill · 01-01-2003, 07:13 PM

im not a trained grappler, but even if I was I think the floor would be the most unfavourable place that I would want to be. As far as fights go - you never fight one person, (well you do technically) but there is always more than one person. Person A that youre fighting with will always have mates B C D etc etc etc with him - Just as you'll probably have friends with you.

When your on the ground, its a lot harder to defend yourself when someone else gets involved. If i saw my mate on the ground and someone else trying to break his arm, I sure as hell wouldnt stand there and watch. (Even tho I truly believe in no weapons, one on one fair fights...) Let me stand there and crumple the guys knees and legs with kicks anyday please lol.

As many others on this board say on the street you look out for yourself.

ryanhall · 01-01-2003, 07:16 PM

Mr. Poopy,

I'll acknowledge that he was going for a choke some of the time and that took longer than say, an arm bar or some other less well-known submission hold, because everyone protects their neck reflexively.

David,

I'll take down a bit if it will help you understand what I am talking about. You seem to be under the assumption that one needs to be trained in order to hurt you badly or that an untrained person would not be as dangerous as a trained one. In many cases, you are correct. However, the most dangerous people you can run into would probably laugh at you if you asked what their style was. Submission holds and the like are great, and I am a big fan of them. However, there are much faster ways to hurt someone on the ground than using "skill" on someone. Granted, these "dirty tricks" are tougher to pull on a skilled grappler, but they are nowhere near impossible. The next time you roll with a buddy, try this: every time you can place your hand across his face for a few seconds, you just took out some eyes and maybe an ear. Grab your training partner's hands--you just removed some fingers. If you train in jeans or shorts, try to get to your pocket--you may have just entered a weapon into the fight. Granted, these things take a high level of mental commitment to use (most people don't want to stab someone or rip off an ear), but the effect that doing something as primal as biting with convition has on someone can not be overstated. As a side note, Ichihara was a karate man and had no ground skills (nobody did back then).

If you would like to play to odds, then groundfighting is not what you are looking for. I can argue this point ad infinitum, but that has been done way too many times on every forum on the 'net. Nobody is going to convince anyone else of anything.

crazyjoe380 · 01-01-2003, 10:09 PM

on the street grappling isn't nessesary.
if u know a good stand up art and know grappling and use the basics. that's all u need. avoid the tackle if u do counter it. work with what u know.

that's it.

Dave3006 · 01-02-2003, 10:48 AM

I still think there is some sort of a disconnect going on here. The biggest argument I hear against going to the ground is that the other guys budies or bystanders might hit or kick you. Well, if you are in a situation where this is possible, I would make the case that you do not want to be fighting - period. Even standing up, you run a risk of getting cold cocked by someone you don't see. Running sounds more appropriate.

All of this assumes that you even have a choice about whether the fight will go to the ground. Unless you are orders of magnitude better than your opponent as a striker, it will go to the ground anyways.

I was fortunate enough to train with Rickson for 6 months in Laguna Nigel before he became so famous. I asked him a similar version of this question. His opinion was that one person did not stand a chance against multiple people. In essence, when we talk about the possibility of other people jumping into your fight, we are talking about multiple attackers. Rickson said you would be better to run.

Szczepankiewicz · 01-02-2003, 11:26 AM

Why don't you go to the local Biker bar, pick a fight and go to the ground. Let us know how it works out.

How many arms have you broken by the way?

12-31-2002, 08:09 PM	#1 (permalink)
Dave3006 Novice Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mission Viejo, CA Posts: 37	Grappling's main disadvantage - not true? Everywhere, even on this board, you hear people talk about how bad it is to go to the ground in a street fight. People are quick to point out how you are vulnerable to kicks and strikes from bystanders. Most people, grapplers included, will agree and admit that taking the fight to the ground is not a good idea. Is it really? Think about it. When you consider the person you will most likely get in a fight with on the street, it is not a trained BJJ or Gracie grappler. 95 times out of 100, it will be some drunk idiot who has at the most probably boxed in his neighbor's garage. He will know close to nothing about submissions and probably be in mediocre shape. I would like to make the case that a person like the one I just described could, most times, be brought down and have his arm broken in less than 5 seconds after hitting the ground.... A quick takedown, American armbar, and you are back on your feet. You have more of a chance of this happening than scoring a knockout punch. And, it will be just as fast. I think some of us think it will be just like the UFC where two trained grapplers stall for 10 minutes on the mat. I would be willing to bet a decent blue belt could tap the average guy faster than he would think. Any comments?

12-31-2002, 10:49 PM	#2 (permalink)
robertlee Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 231	Alot of street fights go to the ground. Just dont want to stay there to long get the job done get up leave. __________________ r.lee

12-31-2002, 11:53 PM	#3 (permalink)
MrPoopy Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Ks Posts: 782	Whether people say it's good or not, if you are a trained grappler with no better striking skills than average joe, are you gonna try and duke it out with him or just take him down and break his arm? Seriously. You're either gonna run away or grapple with the guy. It just wouldn't make sense to stand there and trade blows with him. __________________ MrPoopy

01-01-2003, 02:10 PM	#7 (permalink)
H@pkid0ist Novice Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Hampton, Va. Posts: 69	Just remember that there are more systems out there than JJ that do ground work. Just becouse there is no JJJ/BJJ school in the area doesnt mean that someone isn't skilled on the ground. And,, sometimes even the biggest Shmuck can get lucky, especially if you have to worry about their friends. Even if you have friends there to cover your back they may not be able to protect you from all the bystandartds all the time. But, Fact is fact. Majority of the time you will not fight a trained fighter or one that has enough training, when you fight. Either way extreme caution should always be used when you are on the groung, no matter haw much experience you have down there. __________________ ---2nd Dan Hap Ki Do--- Hap Ki Do: The Anti-Martial Art, Martial Art!!!

01-01-2003, 06:27 PM	#10 (permalink)
MrPoopy Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Ks Posts: 782	Ryan, you've got to admit that Royce could have ended those early UFC fights a lot quicker than he did. He was just playing with some of those guys. __________________ MrPoopy

01-01-2003, 08:13 AM	#4 (permalink)
Bri Thai Guest Posts: n/a	Don't forget to carry a mat with you everywhere you go.

01-01-2003, 10:20 AM	#6 (permalink)
Dave3006 Novice Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mission Viejo, CA Posts: 37	My original point was that a trained BJJ fighter can break the arm of a non-grappler in just a few seconds and be back on his feet. Since most people you fight will not be Gracie purple belts, the argument about going to the ground is not valid.

01-01-2003, 04:31 PM	#9 (permalink)
Dave3006 Novice Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mission Viejo, CA Posts: 37	Ryan, you need to calm down a bit. I am talking about playing the odds and probabilities in a fight. Of course, there are wrestlers and some strong people out there. However, the MAJORITY of the time, you will not meet a trained ground fighter in top physical shape. The average guy has NO clue about groundfighting and he will not even know how you broke his arm. Everyone knows a little something about punching and kicking. Most people know nothing about groundfighting. Therefore, your best odds are on the ground. There are no guarrantees ever on anything. You most likely will be completely in the dark about the other guys skills or lack thereof. The best you can do is stack the odds in your favor. The Gracie example does not wash out because I would bet a trained fighter like Ishihara had some groundfighting skills. This is not what I am talking about. If 2 or 3 people out of 100 guys you met on the street knew what an American armbar even was, I would be surprized.

01-01-2003, 07:13 PM	#11 (permalink)
da_mill Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 81	im not a trained grappler, but even if I was I think the floor would be the most unfavourable place that I would want to be. As far as fights go - you never fight one person, (well you do technically) but there is always more than one person. Person A that youre fighting with will always have mates B C D etc etc etc with him - Just as you'll probably have friends with you. When your on the ground, its a lot harder to defend yourself when someone else gets involved. If i saw my mate on the ground and someone else trying to break his arm, I sure as hell wouldnt stand there and watch. (Even tho I truly believe in no weapons, one on one fair fights...) Let me stand there and crumple the guys knees and legs with kicks anyday please lol. As many others on this board say on the street you look out for yourself.

01-01-2003, 07:16 PM	#12 (permalink)
ryanhall Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 1,247	Mr. Poopy, I'll acknowledge that he was going for a choke some of the time and that took longer than say, an arm bar or some other less well-known submission hold, because everyone protects their neck reflexively. David, I'll take down a bit if it will help you understand what I am talking about. You seem to be under the assumption that one needs to be trained in order to hurt you badly or that an untrained person would not be as dangerous as a trained one. In many cases, you are correct. However, the most dangerous people you can run into would probably laugh at you if you asked what their style was. Submission holds and the like are great, and I am a big fan of them. However, there are much faster ways to hurt someone on the ground than using "skill" on someone. Granted, these "dirty tricks" are tougher to pull on a skilled grappler, but they are nowhere near impossible. The next time you roll with a buddy, try this: every time you can place your hand across his face for a few seconds, you just took out some eyes and maybe an ear. Grab your training partner's hands--you just removed some fingers. If you train in jeans or shorts, try to get to your pocket--you may have just entered a weapon into the fight. Granted, these things take a high level of mental commitment to use (most people don't want to stab someone or rip off an ear), but the effect that doing something as primal as biting with convition has on someone can not be overstated. As a side note, Ichihara was a karate man and had no ground skills (nobody did back then). If you would like to play to odds, then groundfighting is not what you are looking for. I can argue this point ad infinitum, but that has been done way too many times on every forum on the 'net. Nobody is going to convince anyone else of anything. __________________ "Ray, when someone asks you if you're a god, you say YES!"

01-01-2003, 10:09 PM	#13 (permalink)
crazyjoe380 Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,368	on the street grappling isn't nessesary. if u know a good stand up art and know grappling and use the basics. that's all u need. avoid the tackle if u do counter it. work with what u know. that's it. __________________

01-02-2003, 10:48 AM	#14 (permalink)
Dave3006 Novice Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mission Viejo, CA Posts: 37	I still think there is some sort of a disconnect going on here. The biggest argument I hear against going to the ground is that the other guys budies or bystanders might hit or kick you. Well, if you are in a situation where this is possible, I would make the case that you do not want to be fighting - period. Even standing up, you run a risk of getting cold cocked by someone you don't see. Running sounds more appropriate. All of this assumes that you even have a choice about whether the fight will go to the ground. Unless you are orders of magnitude better than your opponent as a striker, it will go to the ground anyways. I was fortunate enough to train with Rickson for 6 months in Laguna Nigel before he became so famous. I asked him a similar version of this question. His opinion was that one person did not stand a chance against multiple people. In essence, when we talk about the possibility of other people jumping into your fight, we are talking about multiple attackers. Rickson said you would be better to run.

01-02-2003, 11:26 AM	#15 (permalink)
Szczepankiewicz Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Meridian, ID, USA Posts: 4,109	Why don't you go to the local Biker bar, pick a fight and go to the ground. Let us know how it works out. How many arms have you broken by the way?

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