TRADITIONAL vs. MODERN

[Great Sage]

TRADITIONAL vs. MODERN
by the Great Sage

Ever since Bruce Lee introduced Jeet Kune Do into the mainstream, traditional martial-arts has seen a decline. Now, with mixed martial-arts and other modern fighting systems, it seems as though people just want to learn “how to fight” right now. There’s less interest in the spiritual cultivation or the traditional value of techniques.

In truth, Bruce Lee like many modern martial-artists are functionalists and care nothing about tradition. Imagine Christmas without lights, gift wraps or a tree... All you’re left with is an unwrapped gift. Where’s the meaning behind that? This is not to say the traditional martial-arts is not functional. A Tae Kwon Do stylist can defeat a JKD practitioner on any given day, vice versa. It depends how hard the individual trains.

Part of the problem is the dojos of today. They seem more interested in money and less on whether you become a good martial artist or not. Many schools don’t have much to offer anyway except the usual stuff that doesn’t work on the streets. These schools put emphasis on making sure the student feels good about themselves, but that doesn’t necessarily helps their martial arts. Gone are the days when a Master only took in students that could represent his dojo, or learn his secrets.

Fortunately for me, I am one of those “trained at home” martial artist. When my father learned Tae Kwon Do, practice was in the wilderness of Thailand. Also, only a few select men were allowed to take lessons and these men had to go through numerous tests and trials. The first was a test of patience. The Master lived in a cave and did not come out for days. The newbies had to wait outside in the elements for days without food or water. Finally, those that were still around when the Master appeared were given permission to train.

There were only three belts: white, brown and black and each belt was well-earned. A person did not even earn a white belt until 2-3 years of training. If one was lucky enough to earn a black belt, he would have studied for nearly 10 years! Needless to say, failing prerequisites was normal.

The training was grueling with no regards to safety or health. This incluced: hours of horse stance training in the searing heat, running through rock filled rivers and kicking trees all day and night. In the end, the men who survived or were left became great martial artists. For as my Grandfather also says, “In those days, one strike from a martial artist was enough to end a match.”

[MrPoopy]

There’s less interest in the spiritual cultivation or the traditional value of techniques.

Shouldn't you go to church for that?

[ryanhall]

Interesting article. Just wondering: why was your grandfather learning Tae Kwon Do in Thailand--home of Muay Thai kickboxing (the national sport)?

[JKJKD]

Sorry bro, not likely a TKD guy is gonna beat a JKD guy. I'm speaking if the TKD guy is using his art that is!
Unless maybe the JKD guy is cripple or something.

I've been trying to get this 2nd degree TKD guy to train with me, mainly to work on my flexibility.

I think he thinks he's going to get beat up or something.

Not talking shit. There are exceptions in every art. But you're main point is so very true.

Its a money game and it will never be like it was!

[Hulk]

About the money part... I don't know if kick boxing counts in this topic... but the thing is... I owe my instructor $$$ for about 6 months of training and some clothes. He said to me one day when he was training me alone at the park (he took sometime off to train some of us), "We might have to train at the park in 2003. Because everybody doesn't pay, and we don't have enough money. The gym room costs $300 a month to hire. ". This is what I think; my club makes no profit, we have 3 instructors, with about 3 - 4 students paying reguarly at $45(AUD) a month.

I saw it in his eyes, that he is determinded to make us all a better fighter and into a better person. In return, he gets our loyality... but some students don't do well, cos its all up to them how much effort they wanna put into training, you know.

I don't know, maybe I am getting off topic, better stop writing

[Great Sage]

JKJKD writes: Sorry bro, not likely a TKD guy is gonna beat a JKD guy.

Your logic is flawed in that you assume anyone who learns JKD is superior. JKD is a concept, not a set of techniques. It can be applied at any time, and is in fact applied all the time by fighters. For every good fighter looks for adjustments, advantages, disadvantages etc... For instance, one of my friends is a mixed martial arts specialist, but he couldn't handle a college korean friend of mine who has been training in TKD. The Korean's kicks were just too fast and devasting (he breaks baseball bats with his shins). You see there are so many things to consider in a fight: speed, timing, strength and natural instincts. All these things are not limited to any martial art, but individual strengths. Had the Korean been kicking for real, my friend wouldn't be alive.

It is not necessarily the art that makes the fighter. Consider that no two math courses are the same, yet similar enough that everyone can understand the same concepts. However, certain students will excell because they grasp a better understanding, or study harder. It isn't necessarily the math then, but the student.

On the point of my father's training. The Master was not Korean, he was actually a Chinese Master who had kung-fu and Tae Kwon Do training. According to my father, he was in seclusion, or hiding, teaching secretly in Thailand. He may still be there. Muay Thai may be the national sport in Thailand, but in the old days Kung-fu, karate and Tae Kwon Do were just as powerful, if not more. My father says the guy could kick down trees and crush stones with his bare hands!

[chris davis 200]

hi people,

I have been studying MA's for quite a while and believe that finding a traditional (REAL) teacher, that is interested in the continuation of the art more than lining his pocket is the hardest thing that most people cant do in martial arts.

The western (and to some extent Eastern) Martial arts communities are saturated with fraudulent and money grabbing 'teachers' and 'kickboxing/JKD/MMA' schools who's teachers have training a little in one thing or another and have not grasped the techniques past their most basic level. i must have tried at least 10 schools before finding a real 'teacher'. And i would consider myself a lucky person to have found someone so quickly!

The real traditional lineages of most martial arts hold theories and techniqes that are Far superior to the 'made up' modern idea of martial arts. IMO. These may take some time to grasp and require the sort of dedication that most do not posses.

Bruce lee (IMO) felt he needed more from Wing Chun because of its lack of long range or mobile techniques. I believe that due to his major experience in a few styles he had progressed past mier techniques, as many masters do. He then tried to teach this to others. But without major training in theories and techniques from a style one cannot progress past technique to a complete fighter. IMO.

It is my experiences that real teachers of the martial arts can teach you how to be an amazing fighter as well as a rounded individual no matter what the style, charlitans teach you to be a thug with no motive but fighting. I have experienced this first hand.

All of the so called teachers/masters that i have met do not even compare, in either skill, ability or demeanour to the real traditional artists who have studied at the source.

Just a few thoughts.

Cheers
Chris

[JKJKD]

Great Sage, I kinda set up to defend TKD.

Its not really a flaw, I said if "the TKD uses his art", meaning its primarily a kicking art. Early on I trained in it also, I've beem there. But its become sport oriented and kicks just aren't enough. Of course there are superior fighters in every art same goes for the weak in every art. But the "way of no way" will beat an art thats limited in its arsenel!

Even out of Rhoon Rhees own mouth he states that Tae Kwon Do is a basic art with at most a couple of dozen techniques.

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by JKJKD
Great Sage, I kinda set up to defend TKD.

Its not really a flaw, I said if "the TKD uses his art", meaning its primarily a kicking art. Early on I trained in it also, I've beem there. But its become sport oriented and kicks just aren't enough. Of course there are superior fighters in every art same goes for the weak in every art. But the "way of no way" will beat an art thats limited in its arsenel!

Well, tell me about a fighter who goes into a match with only his techniques. All fighters have their natural fighting capabilities and resourcefulness. Even those with "no way" have a way. How else would they be fighting? Read my post "Your Jeet Kune Do or Mine?"

Even out of Rhoon Rhees own mouth he states that Tae Kwon Do is a basic art with at most a couple of dozen techniques.

Yes, simplicity is the shortest distance between two points. What you do from there is your business.

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by chris davis 200
hi people,

I have been studying MA's for quite a while and believe that finding a traditional (REAL) teacher, that is interested in the continuation of the art more than lining his pocket is the hardest thing that most people cant do in martial arts.

The western (and to some extent Eastern) Martial arts communities are saturated with fraudulent and money grabbing 'teachers' and 'kickboxing/JKD/MMA' schools who's teachers have training a little in one thing or another and have not grasped the techniques past their most basic level. i must have tried at least 10 schools before finding a real 'teacher'. And i would consider myself a lucky person to have found someone so quickly!

The real traditional lineages of most martial arts hold theories and techniqes that are Far superior to the 'made up' modern idea of martial arts. IMO. These may take some time to grasp and require the sort of dedication that most do not posses.

Bruce lee (IMO) felt he needed more from Wing Chun because of its lack of long range or mobile techniques. I believe that due to his major experience in a few styles he had progressed past mier techniques, as many masters do. He then tried to teach this to others. But without major training in theories and techniques from a style one cannot progress past technique to a complete fighter. IMO.

It is my experiences that real teachers of the martial arts can teach you how to be an amazing fighter as well as a rounded individual no matter what the style, charlitans teach you to be a thug with no motive but fighting. I have experienced this first hand.

All of the so called teachers/masters that i have met do not even compare, in either skill, ability or demeanour to the real traditional artists who have studied at the source.

Just a few thoughts.

Cheers
Chris

Well, I'm glad someone appreciates the traditional martial arts. It's true Bruce Lee did want to finish his Wing Chun training. He even tried bribing Yip Man, but the old man refused because Bruce had not earned that right. In the traditional arts, those who earn passage are taught the true concepts of the art. In the old days, only one or two students were allowed to be taught the Master's secrets. These days there are no secrets, because the Masters went to their deathbeds with them.

[JKJKD]

Well, tell me about a fighter who goes into a match with only his techniques
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Marco Ruas, Pedro Rizzo, Vanderlei Silva..................................

[robertlee]

Old days were different . SO CALLED secrets were to hide thhe art from others so they did not learn your tools so they would still work in a fight if need be. And to hide them from the bushi so you were not discoverd teaching. and to keep some of the tools secret for yourself and pass down the better tools to those yuo trusted . WELL thes days you do not have to hide any thing the gun ended that need. LOST tools fade trhru tranlation and maintaining a secret path that is a shame but it happened. THE so called master was just a man. You forget that long ago practice was to train to use the tools the went to train to prserve the tools. And any traditional M/A no matter how good they are if they get in the ring the tools they use wont be any different then the tools people are useing now. And a vsmall amount of useable tools that you can use well is better then a larege amount that you can not use well at all. Years go by the same. A good boxer will beat most ma in the hand fights any day and they have basicly five different punching sets. Style and years mean little the way you can use the tools then years make the fighter. And a good fighter learns to be disaplined to If there was but one way then all would take that art. The person holds there way

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Imagine Christmas without lights, gift wraps or a tree...

Oh, you mean the REAL celebration of CHRISTmas?



"shouldn't you go to church for that?"
One could. But ethical philosophies can be taught/expressed in many different aspects of life. (And should be in my opinion)
Learning to cause damage to human beings should always be accompanied by aspects of humaneness.
When you go through a gun training course, you learn the safety rules of the gun, and the ethical responsibilities of it as well as how to fire it. Why should martial arts be any different?


Tradition is a part of life. JKD does not disrespect tradition. (to do so is simple ignorance) It simply is not bound by tradition.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Ryu

[eXcessiveForce]

very profond Ryu.

Iagree. IMO. JKD is something any good martial artist will come too over time and serious training. They may miss some of the principles but that is why bruce told people about the principles to help guide others in the right direction.

Just because bruce did it doesn't make it right. Just because he said it doesn't make it so.

It is a philosophy of dynamic action.

Back when bruce had problems with Traditional sysThtems it was because they all claimed to be the best but none of them attempted to reach outside their forms to make the techniques viable in the real world.

He shook up the traditionalists who thought everything was in their system and their forms or katas.

I have never met a traditionalist that believes that he will ever use a form in a fight. Forms are merely a way of practicing combinations and techniques.

Bruce looked at many systems and drew out of them what worked for HIM. and threw out what did not work for HIM.
However you may find techniques that did not work for him work for you. Thus your JKD will be different from the techniques Bruce used. That will not stop what you do from being JKD.

Now if you take all of the techniques Bruce used and said this is JKD and only trained those, that would not be JKD. the would be Bruce Fu or something. BUt it would go against everything bruce believed. IMO


You could start your JKD with TKD if you so desired. But you would work to master it. Then discard those things that were not useful to you and move on to another system. If you stayed only working on a Traditional TKD system and you master it all you would have done is become a master of TKD. You can apply the concepts of JKD to TKD but if you only absorb TKD then you are a Well trained TKD person. To use the principles of JKD you must critically analyze other systems of fighting.

I have been a TKD instructor and TKD does not want to be JKD. It is already TKD. But good TKD instructors will apply the principles of JKD to their training and over the years the will add techniques to the system and personally they will take out techniques that are not useful to them. They will still teach students all of TKD because we do not know what techniques a students will find useful in advance.

If bruce had only had one arm, I believe JKD would be radically different. Most likely because wing chun would have been thrown out because most of it would not be useful to him.

IMHO.



Now shut up and go train harder.

[Siegfried]

I think that, in the beginning of ones training in martial arts, traditional styles are very useful in teaching strong "body mechanics".

Example:
Before I started taking Shotokan Karate I kicked like a pu$$y.
My speed was low, my power was low, reaction time low, hell I sucked.

But then after a few years I got a much stronger kick.

Traditional martial arts definately serve a purpose when one is a complete novice to martial arts. But after several years one should branch of and expand, study other styles and let your own personal fighting method grow. Well, thats my opinion anyway.