JuJutsu throwing vs. Judo throws

[HuSanYan]

Hi to all here @ Defend.net, it's been awhile but then I have been busy reading spankys eloquent ramblings.

Recently I was having a conversation with one of my students who has been training with me a short time, about the origins of Ju Jutsu and its many fighting forms. He told me that a friend of his who practised Judo said that Judoka had stronger throws than Ju Jutsu practitioners and went even further to say that the Ju Jutsu person couldn't throw properly at all! When I replied that I had heard this comment before and also added he was in a way correct, I registered the immediate look of surprise on my student's face.

I then went on to explain my reasons to him and I felt after that it may be of interest to others who have faced the same criticism to learn more about how I view the difference between the throwing' techniques of Judo and Ju Jutsu.

Firstly let me state I rate Judo highly not only as a Martial sport but also an effective form of defence at close quarters. I have over the years met and trained with many Judoka and always found them fit, strong and aggressive individuals on the mat, who can certainly throw fast and hard. A top class Judo person would without doubt be able to throw most people if they got their hands on them.
Why are they so good? Because this is what they train for, everytime they get on the mat. Sport Judo as it stand's today is probably 80% throwing and 20% groundwork. Judoka are encouraged to finish a match with a few clean throws rather than go to the floor to win. They become very good at entering with speed and power to get their throw and are masters of fighting for good grips and holds. Their whole training is geared around this principle and in the world of jacket grappling I think they are 'tops'.

For a Ju Jutsu practitioner, throwing is only part of their complete art. They are the original 'cross trainers'.
As many in the forum will already know, they have been learning for decades strikes, kicks, throws, locks, pressure points, choke, strangles and much more. Also they have been learning their moves for a self-defence situation, not sport competition. Their needs are different to the Judoka.
The Judoka's work starts at standing grappling because any further range does not exist in their sport.

In Ju Jutsu you may wish to grapple after 'catching' a kick, slipping a punch or having to immediately work from a rear choke or grab. Nothing is pre-planned and no given rules or distances will apply. In a self defence situation you will have to work with what you are given at that moment.

For me in system of combat Ju Jutsu, 'throwing' is only a small part of what I do and it is not my first line of defence. I always will teach 'atemi waza' (striking vital points) over any grappling.

Even if I close to grappling range it will be 'head, knees and elbows' first backed up with chokes or joint breaks. I have found out in reality how difficult it is to clearly throw a man who may be two stone heavier and intent on gouging your eyes or biting your ear off! My prime area of training is dealing with 'reality street situations', not sport grappling. For me this is what 'real combat Ju Jutsu' is for, not for the sporting arena.
A lot of today's Ju Jutsu is Brazilian style (the clear favorite of many of you guys on these boards), straight to the floor and grappling for submissions. To me there are not a great many differences between Brazilian Ju Jutsu and Judo. You can find the same techniques in both.
You must remember when Kano developed Kodokan Judo and began to introduce it to the world at the start of the 19th century it still carried the name Ju Jutsu until it was changed. So a lot of people at that time were really practising Judo and not Ju Jutsu at all.
When the feudal era of Japan was over, Ju Jutsu had a bad reputation for being too severe and violent in its nature. Japan was promoting peace and they needed a new image, the days of real martial Arts were over hence the rise of Judo and the fall of Ju Jutsu.
Battlefield Ju Jutsu was a totally different art to anything that came later, its purpose was to finish the enemy by whatever means fair or foul (usually foul). If it wasn't with a weapon then it was with bare hands - lethal blows to vital points, neck breaks, joint dislocations and chokes were the order of the day not osoto-gari or seionage!

In the system I teach I hold on to those principles but obviously have to teach them in a safe manner to prevent injury. To me, there is no such thing as a 'throw' in combat Ju Jutsu. The attacker just ends up on the ground as a result of your action!

Let me give you a few examples of what I mean by this statement. In Judo, o sotto-gari (major outer reap) involves the breaking of your opponent's balance to their rear corner and then stepping up to sweep the supporting leg clean out from under them to execute a very fast and powerful throw.
In combat Ju Jutsu the 'throw' is the result of you stepping up and side stomping down onto the outside knee ligaments and collapsing the leg - end result, opponent on the floor and at your mercy. No throw, just the end product of your stomping out his support knee. Brutal but effective. You certainly do not need the precision skill of timing, balance breaking and footwork of Judo but then again the technique was devised for battlefield combat, you didn't get to much time to be subtle!
Seio-nage (shoulder throw) in combat Ju Jutsu is done with the attacker's elbow levered anti joint wise over your shoulder with the sole aim of breaking the joint, not to tip him over your back. If the attacker 'went over' it was to prevent the joint breaking, in fact 'throwing' himself to the floor. All the 'throws' were end products of breaking a limb or twisting or wrenching a neck or spine.
Clean throws as in Judo did not exist.

Taking the attacker to the ground involved attacking any vital points. Twisting the chin and neck, pulling and twisting ears, grabbing hair, seizing testicles or windpipe, locking and cranking elbows and wrists to breaking point. The assailant would hit the ground through severe injury, not perfectly timed throwing.
In my belief Ju Jutsu methods of getting your opponent to the floor are a world apart from Judo so you cannot compare them.
I have learnt hip throws, body drops, winding throws etc and if I teach them they are executed with a 'persuader'. Hip throws with the thumb stuck in an eye or a finger fish-hooked in the mouth. Body drops being executed by the hair or ears. Tomeonage (stomach throw) with the foot squarely planted in the groin, etc etc. This is how I was taught to 'throw' with the emphasis on getting the job done. not pretty, but bloody effective and it can certainly bring a large attacker down to the ground!
A lot of Ju Jutsu systems are using Karate type blocks and strikes and Judo like throws, for me this is not 'true' Ju Jutsu, it's not even modern Ju Jutsu.

In the 80's, instructors were teaching things like using short stances, boxing like hands and defence, short quick rapid strikes and brutally effective take-downs so different to anything else. They were criticised for being mavericks and renegades, but for me their hybrid Ju Jutsu techniques were as 'real' as it can get.

Judo practitioner's lock up grips and throw, this is their only concern to earn the points to win, this is what they train for and they are extremely good at it. I wouldn't match myself with a half decent Judoka and play to his rules and expect to win. I know this is their field of expertise.

In my Ju Jutsu system if it is close up grappling at standing range I will still strike first, butt, knee, elbow, bite, palm strike, gouge, stomp - whatever it takes to bring the 'man down' - throwing would not be my main aim. I have spoken at length how difficult it is to throw an uncompliant person. Even in a Judo match it is not always possible to execute a throw and it ends up with both participants dragged to the floor.

I have competed in some Ju Jutsu Kumite matches and Brazilian Ju Jutsu competition and witnessed loads of matches, I could count on one hand the number of clean throws I saw. This, I believe is why Ju Jutsu does not put the emphasis on throwing but just uses it as a means to an end if you can't do anything else. I am not a great thrower, but I know many ways to put people down on the ground, that's my main concern. This method is not important it's the end product that counts.

Here are an example of how I view the different concepts between Judo and Ju Jutsu 'throws'.

On a course many years back I witnessed a completely diverse method of throwing by one on my old Senseis, a charismatic and explosive Ju Jutsu expert. He demonstrated an entering move inside a punch thrown by another good friend and excellent Martial Artist. lets call him (a)
Let me tell you, one of them was from Northern Ireland and an ex-merc, he was a powerful 15+ stone and a fearsome fighter, lets call him (b). One of his prime characteristics was a large bushy moustache! When (a) moved inside the punch, he crossed, grabbed (b)'s moustache and launched him with a full shoulder throw. Now believe me. (b) was not an easy man to throw but faced with the choice of losing his prided facial hair or taking the fall, he chose the least painful option. This was a prime example of combat Ju Jutsu's motto of 'use anything that works!'
Can you see the result, Judo throws & JJ throws are as different as 'chalk and cheese'. There can be very little comparison.
Judo relies on leverage and balance breaking to achieve its goals - Ju Jutsu relies on 'Pain'!

hope this is of some interest to the board
regards to you all
HSY

[MrPoopy]

Good post HuSanYan. I believe you hit on the major differences pretty well. But I've got to ask you this: how do you safely train seizing testicles and winpipes? Do you have a way to train it full speed so your students get used to it full speed?

[HuSanYan]

hi, well after reading some recent thread on Defendnet about the VTG (virtual tought guy) I could asnwer you by saying that we had secrets passed on from the ancient Ninja about ignoring pain!!!

but in reality poopy my frd, we use those large groin and pelvic protection area pads.......
hope this answers your point, maybe I should have gone with the VTG answer
bye for now

[Szczepankiewicz]

I have been busy reading spankys eloquent ramblings

Time well spent, my friend.

Time WELL spent!

[Szczepankiewicz]

I have been busy reading spankys eloquent ramblings

Time well spent, my friend.

Time WELL spent!

[sirmattu]

i agree with han, but i also have more to add. i have been doing judo for sometime now, and one reason i think that judokas have an advantage over ju jitsu is that they are trained that you have to get your technique in in a matter of seconds. when ever you practice the traditional form of judo if you dont constantly attack your enemy will recieve a chui which is points given to your opponant because you are stalling. and if the match does go to the mat you only have a certain amount of time to make your move, or its broken up and you are stood up again. so i think the fact is the standards at which the judo practisioner is forced to comly with.

[wardancer]

Originally Posted by HuSanYan

Hi to all here @ Defend.net, it's been awhile but then I have been busy reading spankys eloquent ramblings.

Recently I was having a conversation with one of my students who has been training with me a short time, about the origins of Ju Jutsu and its many fighting forms. He told me that a friend of his who practised Judo said that Judoka had stronger throws than Ju Jutsu practitioners and went even further to say that the Ju Jutsu person couldn't throw properly at all! When I replied that I had heard this comment before and also added he was in a way correct, I registered the immediate look of surprise on my student's face.

I then went on to explain my reasons to him and I felt after that it may be of interest to others who have faced the same criticism to learn more about how I view the difference between the throwing' techniques of Judo and Ju Jutsu.
In my Ju Jutsu system if it is close up grappling at standing range I will still strike first, butt, knee, elbow, bite, palm strike, gouge, stomp - whatever it takes to bring the 'man down' Even in a Judo match it is not always possible to execute a throw and it ends up with both participants dragged to the floor.
I have competed in some Ju Jutsu Kumite matches and Brazilian Ju Jutsu competition and witnessed loads of matches, I could count on one hand the number of clean throws I saw.
Judo relies on leverage and balance breaking to achieve its goals - Ju Jutsu relies on 'Pain'!

hope this is of some interest to the board
regards to you all
HSY

I wish your team good luck in BJJ/MMA events.

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by HuSanYan

.... In Judo, o sotto-gari (major outer reap) involves the breaking of your opponent's balance to their rear corner and then stepping up to sweep the supporting leg clean out from under them to execute a very fast and powerful throw.
In combat Ju Jutsu the 'throw' is the result of you stepping up and side stomping down onto the outside knee ligaments and collapsing the leg - end result, opponent on the floor and at your mercy. No throw, just the end product of your stomping out his support knee. Brutal but effective. You certainly do not need the precision skill of timing, balance breaking and footwork of Judo but then again the technique was devised for battlefield combat, you didn't get to much time to be subtle!
Seio-nage (shoulder throw) in combat Ju Jutsu is done with the attacker's elbow levered anti joint wise over your shoulder with the sole aim of breaking the joint, not to tip him over your back. If the attacker 'went over' it was to prevent the joint breaking, in fact 'throwing' himself to the floor. All the 'throws' were end products of breaking a limb or twisting or wrenching a neck or spine.
Clean throws as in Judo did not exist. ......
....
hope this is of some interest to the board
regards to you all
HSY

Interesting perspective but it's still all Judo to me.

I see the difference as you describe between modern sport judo (Olympic) and "old school" Kodokan Judo. What some call combat judo or Ju-Jitsu.

Kano's book only has a few paragraphs about atemiwaza and vital targets but it was a part of judo at one time to know how to get to your throwing technique from a strike or a kick or to your joint destruction before, during or after your throw... To give way to your attacker and let him unbalance himself is easier than trying to unbalance him by your own force.

Much of this is against the rules of sport judo and is sadly discarded from the curriculum...




Good stuff!

[Tom Yum]

Didn't judo come from jiu-jitsu?

I read somewhere that Kano derived judo as a means of physical fitness for youth and to maintain a competitive spirit when the nation was at peace.

Lunch break is over. Got to run.

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

Didn't judo come from jiu-jitsu?

I read somewhere that Kano derived judo as a means of physical fitness for youth and to maintain a competitive spirit when the nation was at peace.

Lunch break is over. Got to run.

"While the old form, jujutsu, was studied solely for fighting purposes, Kano's new system is found to promote the mental as well as the physical faculties. While the old schools taught nothing but practice, the modern Judo gives the theoretical explanation of the doctrine, at the same time giving the practical a no less important place".
.....T. Shidachi, 1892


The Japanese ideogram ‘ju’...denotes various meanings in the Oriental mind which, in the English language, can be approximated only by concepts... gentleness, softness, pliancy, yielding, tractibility, submissiveness, weakness, harmoniousness, as well as a state of being at ease. All of these denotations involve philosophical complexities of absoluteness and are not relative or practical connotations. Herein lies the source of the error.
...In developing his Kodokan Judo system, Jigoro Kano was aware that a still older judo system existed, the Jikishin school. It represented a practical approach to combative exercises by being a synthesis of jujutsu systems. In one sense, it was a challenge to the Kodokan system. However, with jujutsu on the decline in the Meiji Period (1868 - 1912), anything similar in nature had little chance of survival. Professor Kano thus labored under terrific handicaps in bringing about a national interest and governmental recognition for his Kodokan system. By his tremendous foresight and his experience as an educator, he knew that unless his Judo system could obtain official governmental sanction, it too, was doomed along with jujutsu systems.

Donn F Draeger

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

Didn't judo come from jiu-jitsu?

I read somewhere that Kano derived judo as a means of physical fitness for youth and to maintain a competitive spirit when the nation was at peace.

Lunch break is over. Got to run.

When you find time you should read this:

Jujutsu
By Jigoro Kano and T. Lindsay, 1887 (Transactions of the Asiatic Society of Japan, Volume 15)

http://www.judoinfo.com/kano6.htm

At your service...

[wardancer]

Originally Posted by Tant01

When you find time you should read this:

Jujutsu
By Jigoro Kano and T. Lindsay, 1887 (Transactions of the Asiatic Society of Japan, Volume 15)

http://www.judoinfo.com/kano6.htm

At your service...

Kimura is my Juod Idol when it comes to MMA.
He was so good that Helio named the name of sub. after him!

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

HuSanYan,
Thanks for this great post, I particularly appreciated it because I'm planning on adding a ju jitsu class to my curriculum very soon.
A subject I'd really love to hear you touch on is the Shuai Chiao system. I've read it's one of, if not the oldest forms of kung fu and also the predecessor to ju jitsu. I've researched it a little and was immediately intrigued because each throw I saw looked like a small variation on some judo throw that I already knew. The difference was that while one hand was usually gripping the wrist or sleeve as in judo, rather than the second gripping the jacket at chest level it was usually striking to the face or neck. The effect as far as executing the throw was almost identical but that element of pain was added and these throws seemed more practical for self defense.
Have you had any experience with Shuai Chiao? If so, what do you think about it?

[bOoRadley]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...99969432921273

[sirmattu]

its good to see that now youre not required to use judo at judo shiais anymore. (joke).