Hapkido or real TKD? Groundfighting only at advanced levels???

Thats two people agreeing with me. Has this ever happened before? I doubt it.

I'm holding out for the hat trick!

[Cain]

hmm, now bri is doing this el'lamo thing again..

anyways, in the tkd that Gen. Choi and a few others created, you have a grappling compendium which contains several techniques which is designed for attacks when you are seated, when in a car, when at a bardesk and so on, it is both grappling, good clinch-stuff and pretty simple grappling, it isn't "let us roll on the floor and have good fun since the floor is so nice and soft" grappling, but more like "let me get the hell up before something bad happens to me" grappling..

BUT.. most tkd-schools don't include this at all, and they most likely never will, it 'hurts' and the mentality at many mcdojangs is that "if it hurts, we dont' want to do it" but then again, let them do that.. but don't make tkd as a whole bad for that reason

[Cain]

yes, AND... tkd isn't claiming that it is many arts, tkd is taekwondo.. it is that simple! people with no clue (like bri) on the outside standing there pointing small bony fingers claiming that they know everything, is not the same thing as the truth.. it is just the good old stupidity that is on a rush again.

[ramus]

HKD is the only grappling art in my area.

but it still kicks ass!!!

i agree with Bri, also

[ramus]

Should I take kickboxing, that looks like a brutal fighting art, im looking to get in shape.

Originally posted by Cain
yes, AND... tkd isn't claiming that it is many arts, tkd is taekwondo.. it is that simple! people with no clue (like bri) on the outside standing there pointing small bony fingers claiming that they know everything, is not the same thing as the truth.. it is just the good old stupidity that is on a rush again.

You're half right. One of us is clueless.

[Cain]

nice argument bri! congratulations..

Why thank you.

[eXcessiveForce]

I have never heard TKD claim to be anything other than TKD.

But the system I studied. which is the largest martial arts organization in the world. (active members) added BJJ to the TKD system when it proved it had more to offer than the system of ground fighting that had currently been available. Which consisted more of Aikido, Classical JJ, and Judo. Still some of these aspects are in the system, but side program taught as groundfighting is simply call groundfighting. It is not called BJJ, nor JJ, just ground fighting.

Funny thing is during my training in other styles I have found all sorts of other things that I never knew had names other than those I learned in the TKD system.

When I started working on JKD, I found out some of the footwork we were taught was the same as what was taught in Kali, some of the techniques were found in silat. All muay thai techniques where taught in the tkd system as well.


since 1984 this is what I trained in and it is TKD. It has techniques that are found in other styles but it is TKD. They now partner with Krav but that is called Krav, not TKD. And the instructor may teach both Krav and TKD but they do not mix the two. That I don't understand but that is what people of high rank than me decided and that is what is done.

personally I have always led the fight to use the same realism taught in JKD schools, and Krav in TKD. And that is what we did in my school.

It's funny how people bash classical systems because they don't adapt and then when one system does adapt they say that it isn't that system anymore.

Songahm TKD was created in 1969 because the ITF and WTF refused to adapt. They used karate forms and did not want to look for any better way to train. So Songahm TKD was created and redeveloped to take the elements of TKD and fuse them techniques that were of value.

Thus later I learned that their was a lot of Kali in the Knife work,
a lot of Silat in the joint manipulation. Element of Panatukan was also contained in the TKD system. I found all the technques in Muay Thai contained in the forms except one kick which was not in the forms but was included in the pressure point control tactics area of training. Some techniques were found in JKD. I learned that I knew many of the traps already but did not use them in combination like they were used in JKD. the traps were not emphasized but they were there.


I doubt that you can find an art that is totally pure. And the fact that TKD is a created system from all the martial arts in Korea at the time makes this especially true of TKD.

TKD has elements of Hapkido, Tang soo do, Hwang do, Karate, and the list goes on. The fact that something is called TKD denotes an emphasis on kicking and hand technques and relates back to a korean origin.


I personally don't care what they call it. If it has value then it doesn't matter what it's called. What's in a name.

Ramus just needs to find a school that is going to teach him what he wants to learn. They may call that school joe's house of pain,
or sam's house of crap. Or Bri Thai's hall of flatulence. It doesn't matter as long as he learns what he wants to learn and it's solid training.

So far he has picked like 10 schools but I don't think he has trained a day. Better to pick something and train then to constantly change your mind about what is the best school to train at.

Training in something is better than endlessly talking about training in something and never do it.

Side note, when I trained in WTF (for a very short time because it was the only martial arts school in my area) it had no ground fighting, taught to keep your hand down rather than up. had not self defense techniques that were useable. Taught kicks improperly (which led to a high injury rate amoung the high ranks in the knee area) and generally had a horrible conditioning program. Also between schools there was very little uniformity. Some schools did one set of forms others did another set. Some did both. They punched from horse stances and loved deep stances. They also had no foot work. except to circle around.

My previous training had taugh walking stance (natural stances) ground fighting, always to keep your hands up, useful selfdefense, how to avoid injury in kicking and the conditioing was moderate and the schools I visited all did the same thing. No punching from horse stances. mostly bag work and boxing style hand work. Emphasis on foot work. and we were encouraged to work combinations.

Both were called TKD. I'm lucky I was exposed to a better system before I trained with WTF and I am also lucky to be able to go back to the original system when a school opened in my area.


Anyway, my only point in this was to inform that not all TKD was create equal. And it would be a mistake to stereotype all TKD as non ground fighters.



I also don't care what ramus studies, I know how to groundfight

"It's funny how people bash classical systems because they don't adapt and then when one system does adapt they say that it isn't that system anymore."

Adapting is when yoour system changes its techniques a little in the light of experience. One system copying is copying. Unless, of course, you call your BJJ training BJJ, and don't try to call it TKD.

[eXcessiveForce]

As I said ealier, it was going to be Gracie JJ, but that deal fell through so instead of calling it Gracie JJ they call it groundfighting.

Now you can't just start using a trademark name without someone sueing you

[ryanhall]

Should I take kickboxing, that looks like a brutal fighting art, im looking to get in shape.

Not quite sure how you define brutal, but it will get you in shape.

Thats two people agreeing with me. Has this ever happened before? I doubt it.

I'm holding out for the hat trick!

I'll get on board. GOOOOAAAALLLLL! It's a hat trick!

[Crouchtig]

KICKboxing?

THAI boxing in my opinion is both more brutal and better excersice

unless by kickboxing you meant thai boxing (there are those who do not know the difference)

i learnt the difference by watching a program on muay thai. it made me want to do thai boxing in the first place

recently i watched a repeat of it. id previously decided not to do any punch bag training that day but watching that program (thai boxing: a fighting chance) just made me want to train. the roundhouses i did just after watching the program were the best id ever done (its all down to psychology)

its also the program that made my mum hate thai boxing (she wouldnt let my ten year old brother do it)

ive forgotted what thread this is

so much for being intelligent

[Tom Yum]

Take hapkido now and start your grappling. You will learn many of the same kicks as TKD plus alot of good judo/jiujitsu takedowns and finishing holds. Hapkido grappling is like traditional jiujitsu; you drill the takedowns and finishing holds to learn technique and as you increase rank, its practiced more or less like sparring.

If you want to get good at ground fighting alone, take bjj. I knew many of the submissions I was taught, but did not have a good working knowledge of maneuvering on the ground and how to move about your opponent.

[swan104]

Originally posted by Crouchtig


i learnt the difference by watching a program on muay thai. it made me want to do thai boxing in the first place

What channel was it on?