Hapkido or real TKD? Groundfighting only at advanced levels???

[ramus]

i should start one of these to when schools lets out, but which one. I had decided to take HKD a while back, but when I talked with the TKD teacher he said ground fighting for beginning students like me will be too confusing, and that is why his students don't learn grappling tilll advanced levels. Well here's the debate in all honosty I want to learn ground fighting now(both will teach me stand up now), but is it really better for the student to wait to learn groundfighting, I also wrestle @ school so I believe that learning groungfighting now could be of more benifit.

[ryanhall]

Grappling too confusing? Ask to see the TKD teacher's credentials or have him personally show you something.

[Toudiyama]

Real TKD containing groundfighting, didn't gen/Choi cgreate it as sport? wasn't it Teakyon, the predesessor of TKD, that was the complete art or do the koreans now call everything either TKD, TSD or HKD?

I would say working from the base upwards is theasiest method so groundfighting first followed by stances

[swan104]

Groundfighting advanced? What about White belt Judo, JJ, BJJ people that have just started learning the art then?

As with everything, you start off with the basics and then learn and learn...

[chris davis 200]

I had this responce about Grappling in Karate.

Stuck at it and when we got to the grappling side of things (after black belt) it was SHITE! I was doing Judo at the time and was able to demolish all of the techniques i was shown. This was down to a teacher who didnt know what they were doing - not the art necisarilly.

Politly ask the guy to show you some grappling that they do, If he wont, ask some of his top students, if they wont, then walk away.

Cheers
Chris

[Crouchtig]

if you do a grappling art you will learn to grapple against other grapplers
but you wont know how to grapple strikers

if you do a striking art you will learn to strike against other strikers
but you wont know how to strike grapplers

TKD is based on striking. they dont use much grappling so any that they do use will probably be useless

if you want both do an art that does both (i believe HKD is one of these)

Hapkido sound better than Taekowndo

"I do Hapkido" quick lets escape before he defeats us!
"I do taekwondo" really. go away

see. HKD (you said you wanted ground fighting, HKD has it)

[magic]

As far as I am aware, TKD does not include any real grappling in the standard curriculum, although any martial arts school worth its salt includes some these days.

IMHO, no matter which style/system you start in, its best to master a few simple things first - whether this is striking or grappling first it is the same principle.

I agree with other posters though - ask the Instructors for a demo of their grappling syllabus before signing up if this is important to you. Although, if you really want good grappling, there are much better sources than TKD and HKD!

Cheers

Magic

[ryanhall]

Although, if you really want good grappling, there are much better sources than TKD and HKD!

Someone said it.

Ramus,
Would you go to the Gracies to learn how to box?

[Great Sage]

My advice is that if you really like grappling, dive right into grappling arts such as judo, jiu jitsu or BJJ, etc... Complement that with boxing or Muay Thai and you’re in good shape.

I’ve been in TKD and Hapkido for over 10 years and there’s no REAL grappling involved. A few joint locks, hip throws and takedowns don’t constitute as grappling. A GOOD TKD dojan will teach you fundamental techniques, kicks and mobility. After that, you’ll need to move to more specialized training.

In truth, Korean arts are lacking... There’s no specialization or scientific approach. Students and instructors alike simply throw techniques at you at random. In boxing and most grappling arts, everything you do has a purpose and there’s no room for laziness. These arts specialize in range, timing, precision and coordination.

When I started boxing, I realized that it was very easy to get inside kicks. I also realized that TKD punches were greatly flawed in their delivery method — no power involved, while exposing the chin.

[eXcessiveForce]

Just for information purposes.

The American Taekwondo Association, Songahm Taekwondo Federation, and the World Traditional Taekwondo Union added BJJ to the system in the early 90's.


So anyone who says TKD does not have groundfighting is misinformed.


TKD systems that do not have much if any ground fighting are

ITF
WTF
Universal TKD
USTU


as far as groundfighting being too complex there are two parts to that question.

Some believe it is better to gain a high skill in one art and then add to it as it speeds up the learning curve. Two much information in the beginning does run the risk of lowering retention of material. Also if you are trying to teach on a time horizon student retention may go down if it takes to long to attain the next level. (that is a business aspect the school owner must take into account) If you teach too much info you also risk quality of technique to drop. Because most students will only practice so much. Many feel stand up is were you should focus early and then add groundfighting.

Others stress groundfighting first and then stand up.


Also bigger schools find it much more difficult to teach ground fighting to low skill students. It is much easier to teach stand up and then when they have learned to take direction and have a more functional understanding add groundfighting.

Really you just have to assess who will give you the best quality of instruction.

If instructor A teaches stand up then Ground fighting and the quality of either is poor or they both suffer or does not fit with your timeline of training you might need to look elsewhere.

If instructor B teaches both at the same time and the same is true then you also need to seek instruction elsewhere.

You need to decide what is important to you and them deteremine which instructor will get you as close to what you want as possible. Realize no one is perfect and it is unlikely that you will find one school that will do things exactly the way you want. For that you need to open your own school and run it that way.

So TKD added BJJ to their system. Well, that little problems solved then.............

One tiny error.......You can't just "add a system". You have to spend your dues learning it.

[eXcessiveForce]

Bri,


Many of the senior masters went and trained with the gracies for a very long time. And at one point the gracies and the ATA were going to integrate the systems fully so that the gracies would have an instant world wide exposure. Politics and money came into play and that deal was never finalized. So instead they moved forward with training the instructors in a top down fashion.

Granted even today they are a few instructors that have not yet learned the groundfighting but those grow fewer every year.


I have seen many of the masters who trained with the gracies and they are awesome on the ground. I was in the very first class given to instructors on ground fighting and since then back in the early 90's. Over the last 10 years many more instructors have attained a very high proficiency in ground fighting.

This same thing has been done with Krav Maga, The deal allows ATA instructors to cross train in Krav and then when they are certified by the KM group they are allowed to begin teaching it in the ATA school.


one other note,

ATA, STF and WTTU are the same organization under different names in the world.

Just how many arts can TKD pretend to be?

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by Bri Thai
Just how many arts can TKD pretend to be?

Hahaha... Exactly. Why call it TKD when you have BJJ, Muay Thai, Tai Chi Chuan, etc... in the curriculum? Especially when those other arts are better suited for self-defense. Instead of Bob's Tae Kwon Do, maybe it should be Bob's Unified Martial Arts, or something...

[swan104]

The integration of BJJ into TKD implies that TKD as an artform is flawed. I'm curious what the Gracies would think if a student or teacher demonstrates a BJJ technique and says it is TKD?

Bri is right. How many arts can TKD claim to be? Does that number depend on the organisation?