Hapkido vs. Jiu Jitsu

[ryanhall]

Conach,
Judo is definitely a worthy art, but it can be exceedingly difficult to throw someone who doesn't want to be thrown. If they are larger than you or they don't have a solid jacket for you to hold on to, you can forget most throws. The best ones are the leg reaps anyways. Just my two cents.

[mjohnson]

I take hapkido, it sucks. Why do I take it then? My friend teaches it for free and gives me full access to his dojo. There is no BJJ here and I moved here recently, nearest bjj is 130 miles away. Another hapkido student wanted to roll with me, see what BJJ is all about. He's been doing TKD, HKD, and Judo for about 4 years. I've done almost 2 years of BJJ. First time we roll I get the take down and the submission. Now he wants bjj lessons from me. Judo sucks, a black belt in judo is a blue belt in BJJ. I'm a blue belt.. IF you do vale tudo style BJJ, the original BJJ the gracies used in the old days, you could elbow, kick, knee, and use small joint manipulations. BJJ is the ultimate martial art in my opinion. If someone wants to prove me wrong, thats fine I can take an ass kicking.

[BadgerFu57]

Originally posted by Great Sage
Thanks for the feedback guys... I think I'll stick with boxing until I find a suitable grappling curriculum..

Boxing is great for self-defense anyway....

Some japanese jiu-jitsu is excellent.... I have a family friend who is a 2nd degree black belt in Judo, but before that he got Jiu-Jitsu training while in the Marines.... he had to UNLEARN a lot of his jiu-jitsu techniques (keep in mind its japanese) because they were too violent.

Some forms of jiu-jitsu teach you to throw people so that they land in awkward positions that could break joints and bones and such. Try out the Juju schools. Some may be a bunch of spiritual blah-blah, but others might be really good.

A lot of it depends on the instructor.

[BadgerFu57]

Originally posted by mjohnson
I take hapkido, it sucks. Why do I take it then? My friend teaches it for free and gives me full access to his dojo. There is no BJJ here and I moved here recently, nearest bjj is 130 miles away. Another hapkido student wanted to roll with me, see what BJJ is all about. He's been doing TKD, HKD, and Judo for about 4 years. I've done almost 2 years of BJJ. First time we roll I get the take down and the submission. Now he wants bjj lessons from me. Judo sucks, a black belt in judo is a blue belt in BJJ. I'm a blue belt.. IF you do vale tudo style BJJ, the original BJJ the gracies used in the old days, you could elbow, kick, knee, and use small joint manipulations. BJJ is the ultimate martial art in my opinion. If someone wants to prove me wrong, thats fine I can take an ass kicking.

the only problem with BJJ for self-defense is that it's aggressive and made for one-on-one. In self-defense, if you are in the mount, it's hard to explain to the police you were just defending yourself. Also, if he has buddies with baseball bats you are in trouble. BJJ is the BEST for one on one fighting. But other than that, it can't really do much for you. Boxing on the other hand could get you a quick knockdown and then you could run away. I don't think it's that complicated to see why BJJ isn't great for self-defense although it is beneficial.

[BadgerFu57]

And I agree Hapkido does suck. The strikes are too weak, the set-ups for some of the joint locks are unrealistic and impossible to pull-off.

[Sean Dempsey]

This does carry over to a street fight. I usually win my fights against groundfighters by biting and reversing a technique to a breaking technique, torquing and twisting joints that they don't expect, bending fingers to the point of breaking, aggressivly using the most painfull pressure points, fishooking, gouging, pinching, pulling of hair, poking eyes, striking of joints, grabbing the groin.

First - any BJJ guy can do all the same things, it's laughable to think that a BJJ guy in a street fight isn't gonna do the same things.

Second - I've *had* a finger broken (intentionally) in a fight. It did not stop me. And while this individual was trying to joint lock me and pull my hair and squeeze my groin (he actually eneded up not being able to find my genitals and grabbed my inner thigh...), he quickly began to see spots as the pressure from my rear naked made him to night-night.

NIGHT NIGHT!!

[Sean Dempsey]

Also, if he has buddies with baseball bats you are in trouble

BJJ is great in situations with multiple attackers... me and 3 of my fellow BJJ trainers against some punk outside a grocery store at 2am works wonders.

Anything anyone says goes both ways. Funny how on these boards, no one talks about how EFFECTIVE BJJ is with multiple attackers when its you and YOUR friends against a single Hapkido/MT/TKD guy.

[BadgerFu57]

i dont think any martial art is great against multiple attackers, but Muay Thai/Boxing would be better than JuJu.

One JuJu vs one striker the Juju will always win.
X number of Juju vs ONE striker will always win.

One Juju vs three cronies.... eh.

[mjohnson]

Lets be realistic. If there is multiple attackers, no matter what style or styles you train, your in for an ass kicking. If your not smart enough to get away from a situation like that you deserve it. But if you are attacked anyways, being in martial arts can help.. some more than others. BJJ is taught mostly on the ground, correct. But most BJJ instructors study other arts and incorporate that into their lessons. In my case we did boxing, kick boxing, and MT. So I believe that if I come in contact with a black belt TKD ass munch, I'm going to hand him an ass whooping.

About explainging things to the police. And being honest and respectful is the only way to go. If you lie, cuss and are a total ass, they will probably not cut you slack, they may cut something else tho.... But just be honest about the fight, explaing your training and how you did it, some might think its cool. And don't use excessive force. Use only what you need to subdue the attacker. Unless they have a gun or knife, which you should have ran anyways, then lethal force is an option.

HKD is letting me practice kicks, punches, and gay ass "escapes" when someone grabs my wrist. TKD/HKD gives people a false sense of security. Seriously, does the fight end when you get kicked, or thrown on your back? Street fighting is way different than "sport" fighting. But if you want to be well rounded, I suggest you study multiple arts. Professional fighters study more than one or two arts, and if they say they don't they are lying. They may have a main art, and maybe work weak points with someone else.

[conach]

Posted by mjohnson
Lets be realistic. If there is multiple attackers, no matter what style or styles you train, your in for an ass kicking. If your not smart enough to get away from a situation like that you deserve it.

This is very interesting... See, its quite a difficult situation because it can become very frustrating. I mean, you have 3 thugs wanting to fight and you're trained in Martial Arts, you will definitely take a shot and try to kick their asses. Its a mind game... You could (and will) get hurt and you know it right from the start, but what if?. There's always a "what if". What if I come out successful?

This is interesting. Let's keep an input on this and see what comes out. I train Martial Arts... I train hard and feel prepared to face any situation. Do I really have to run away from multiple attackers or face them?

Any further comments, thoughts, ideas or experiences will be appreciated. Serious comments please. Let's get to the bottom of this matter.

[mjohnson]

If you want to go and challange a group, go for it. 9 times out of 10 your not going to know the people, and they know some stuff too? The odds are against you if you take on a group. Even if you do win, was it worth it? If your thinking about movies and crap where they guy kicks everyones ass, your in the wrong forum. I don't have an ego, and if I can get away from a mutiple attacker situation, I'm happy. I have nothing to prove on the street, I do that in the dojo.

In a recent issure of Black belt mag, a champion kickboxer out of San Francisco was shot and killed in the street. The shooter backed into this guys car while he was at his gym training. So he takes off after him on foot, they exchange words, I think the kick boxer even lands blows, but he is still dead. Same thing here guys, you go out cocky with an ego your going to wind up dead.

Some martial arts teach things you can do against multiple attackers. But even then, the odds are strongly against you. If you do get out of the situation and later think "I could have taken those guys." That is stupid, and if you do take them on, you deserve what you get.

[Tom Yum]

Originally posted by mjohnson

HKD is letting me practice kicks, punches, and gay ass "escapes" when someone grabs my wrist. TKD/HKD gives people a false sense of security. Seriously, does the fight end when you get kicked, or thrown on your back? Street fighting is way different than "sport" fighting. But if you want to be well rounded, I suggest you study multiple arts. Professional fighters study more than one or two arts, and if they say they don't they are lying. They may have a main art, and maybe work weak points with someone else.

I have to agree that you dont need a set of 12 techniques to escape from wrist grabs and 12 for lapel reversal, its a waste of time. The better escapes are done vs. bear hugs (rear and front) and vs. headlocks (rear and front) which happen in real fights.

Also vs. shoving is good too.

[Kosh]

Originally posted by H@pkid0ist
There is a big difference between Hapkido taught in most TKD schools and traditional Hapkido.

Hapkido is VERY different to TKD. Hapkido shares kicks but the self defence aspects are much more refined and there arent any patterns etc. Hapkido should cover everything, so its logically going to be limited at ground fighting compaired to BJJ.

Also, like Hapkidoist said, the philosophy of Hapkido is to get out of fights; so prolonged ground fighting is avoided.

My instructor holds a 6th dan in Hapkido and is a representative of the Hapkido federation, we can compare techniques if you like...i think that would be interesting.

[Kosh]

Originally posted by Tom Yum


I have to agree that you dont need a set of 12 techniques to escape from wrist grabs and 12 for lapel reversal

There arent really that many moves in Hapkido. Plus, during grading, we only need to learn one move per situation (one for wrist, one for choke, one for elbow etc).

There are different 'levels' of moves. There are basic self defence moves learnt by colour belts, then there are more difficult (and much more painful) black belt self deffence moves: which can be subtly different versions of the basic moves.

The idea that we spend years learning simple hand grab reversals isnt true, youd be past that in a few weeks in our school (while also learning kicking and falling techniques).

[IPON]

Originally posted by conach


I train Martial Arts... I train hard and feel prepared to face any situation. Do I really have to run away from multiple attackers or face them?

Any further comments, thoughts, ideas or experiences will be appreciated. Serious comments please. Let's get to the bottom of this matter.

There are exceptions to every rule of course but generally you would never want to face multiple opponents. Though yuo may feel confident for every situation I can assure you that you probably are not trainined for it. Remember overconfidence is a flaw not a virtue (I am not attacking you). The point is it is always better to avoid physical conflict altogether, why? You should not want to injure another person nor let injury fall upon yourself. If there is an option, you should always dump the ego and avoid. It can be difficult enogh winning against one human much less 2+.

I have been invlded in this scenerio a few times and I knew I couldn't avoid it and I also knew I was going to get very hurt or worse fortuatle a lot times bullies share on heart and don't have the stomach when you fight back. But it could have gone either way. I have studied both JJJ and HKD and don't have a problem with at least the styles I studied. While no MA is the best to combat multiples your best chance of survival is on your feet. Any ground fighting would be out of teh question, wrestling, Judo, BJJ etc. Its not an attack on BJJ it is a 1on1 MA and most have the philosophy of ground first, which is arguable in a 1on1 fight but definately out of the question for multiple.

The best techniques in a multiple situation are weapons, knives are good but taking the safety of my 9mm is probably the best.

My 2 cents