Systema vs Krav Maga

[Kingston]

Originally posted by Azzazzin
I don't just want to learn to fight...

I want to be the best fighter...

uh....how can yo be the best without learning how to be the best?

Weight classes are not the way to see if your the best......The ring is not the way to see if your the best. There is no solid 100% way to tell if your the best.

MT has weight classes, Systema does not, Systema teaches you ways to deal with the bigger people. Teaches you ways to fight multiple oponents, teaches you ways to defend against a knife, chain, stick, gun exc. MT is no where near as complete as Systema, and most likly the place you find will not set you up to accualy be able to defend yourself, without trading blows....

lol MT will not get you to become a good fighter by the summer, ill garuntee you, that you will learn more about how to win a fight with systema before the summer then MT......you can quote me on that.

[Kingston]

lol im back. Azzazzin, you'll see in practice. Some of those exercises are IMPOSSIBLE to finish lol. ok not imposible but hard. You'll learn more about it as you go to class.

allot of the guys there are in great shape. you have to be in at least average shape to make it through the practices....

There are warmup exercises that can be very chalenging. But at practice we come to learn Systema, not how to do more pushups, or how to punch a pad for an hour.

Systema just is not limited by your current physical shape(as much as some other arts)

[ryanhall]

Your physical condition and strength play major roles in real life confrontation, as well as in the ring. Anybody who tells you different is wrong. Kingston, I know you're all about Systema, but don't believe that being 'soft' or not relying on power will even start to take strength out of the equation. If you're underweight or morbidly obese, you won't be much of a fighter no matter what you do. When skill is equal, size, strength, aggresssion, and the will to be more violent than the other guy make the difference.

[Kingston]

oh i know physical condition plays a major role in a real life confrontation, no one has told me differently.......but you can be soft, and still have ALOT of power. Its not so much about your strength its about the others guys strength.......you can be high above average for strength an fitness, but there is always somebody stronger. Like any human action fighting is all about body mechanics.

how do you hit a golf ball further? if you try to knock the hell out of it as hard as you can it doesn't seem to go as far as if you relax during your swing, and rely on technique......how do you throw a baseball further, yes it requires strength, but you have the use your whole body to throw the ball, its all about body mechanics. Strength just adds to the power you "skill" is able to produce.

If you practice how to fight useing techniques that require little strength, and defencive strategies that dont require you to be stronger, eventualy you will become qute good at it. Therefore it lessens the advantage of the stronger oponent.

of cource if your underweight or morbidly obese you wont be much of a fighter no matter what you do. No art can make up for those types of dissadvantages, and i would never say that Systema could.

everything relies on power, but you can still generate allot of power while being soft. If you rely on strength it will always go to the stronger person. You need strength but you need effective techniques/strategies more. Alot more.

[ryanhall]

Kingston,

of cource if your underweight or morbidly obese you wont be much of a fighter no matter what you do. No art can make up for those types of dissadvantages, and i would never say that Systema could.

I know you didn't say that, and I was exaggerating. My point still stands. The better the shape you are in, the stronger and faster you are, the better your chances of survival.

how do you hit a golf ball further? if you try to knock the hell out of it as hard as you can it doesn't seem to go as far as if you relax during your swing, and rely on technique......how do you throw a baseball further, yes it requires strength, but you have the use your whole body to throw the ball, its all about body mechanics

I agree with this, as body mechanics and technique are everything in sports. You will notice, however, that the athletes of today (just look at a baseball game in which half of the players on the field are 200 lbs) are extremely strong, and that makes up for a lot of deficiency in technique. In addition, exact technique and calm are a very tall order for most people when it comes to defending themselves. If you can keep cool, that's great. But a lot of the time, you won't. I don't fall into the 'only gross motor skills work' category, but the simpler I can keep my stuff, the better. There is a lot of technique in an elbow or a palm strike, it's just not complicated--hence its effectiveness.

If you practice how to fight useing techniques that require little strength, and defencive strategies that dont require you to be stronger, eventualy you will become qute good at it. Therefore it lessens the advantage of the stronger oponent.

I agree with you here, and I can see where you're coming from. That said, I'm more on the other side of the argument: if there's justification and you're in danger, just hit fast, hard, repeatedly, and in places that fat and/or muscle doesn't protect. Takes a lot of complex technique out of the equation.

You need strength but you need effective techniques/strategies more. Alot more.

I agree to a point. Proper body mechanics and sound strategy can definitely overcome strength, but some people are so strong that technique really is a moot point for them. You may beat them, but it will be hard no matter what you do. Just look at Tank Abbot or an NFL lineman.

If you rely on strength it will always go to the stronger person.

If you rely purely on strength and fight without an ounce of technique or know-how, then it will go to the stronger person.

[Azzazzin]

Ok, I went to another practice to watch, and it was mostly rolling around, and alot of other weird things...

One thing I saw that was good was the leg blocking, which would be good against leg kicks from a Thai boxer...

But the thing was it was mostly defence against an attacker, where you would have to wait for someone to attack to for any move to be effective. There were no attacks.

It is interesting, but it's not the type of art I would really dedicate myself to, and go every day. Im still looking for MT because I know it would condition me as a good striker fighter. I would still do maybe 4-5 classes of Systema a month maybe as it seems usefull in some situation, but it still hasn't convinced me.

If you coyld give me some examples and talk me into it I would gladly listen, as I am always open to anything (and Im still doing a couple classes just to make sure)

[ryanhall]

Not to be rude, but why should we have to take our time to convince you? Go to the schools, check them out, and do what you want.

[Kingston]

Originally posted by Azzazzin
Ok, I went to another practice to watch, and it was mostly rolling around, and alot of other weird things...

One thing I saw that was good was the leg blocking, which would be good against leg kicks from a Thai boxer...

But the thing was it was mostly defence against an attacker, where you would have to wait for someone to attack to for any move to be effective. There were no attacks.

It is interesting, but it's not the type of art I would really dedicate myself to, and go every day. Im still looking for MT because I know it would condition me as a good striker fighter. I would still do maybe 4-5 classes of Systema a month maybe as it seems usefull in some situation, but it still hasn't convinced me.

If you coyld give me some examples and talk me into it I would gladly listen, as I am always open to anything (and Im still doing a couple classes just to make sure)

was this tonights practice? (tuesday)

anyway. There are attacks, everytime some one defends an attack the other person is there attacking him. Systema tries to get you to learn by doing. The attacker learns how to attack, the defender learns how to defend.

BUT movement is most important, movement sets you up for attacking.

in your first class you dont know anything....so the attacker goes slow.....lets you feel things out, learn how to defend. If your not ready then people wont push it. If you want them to be more agressive they will.Systema's movements translate very well from slow speeds to full speed.

because its not a competition, it's more important that the defender is getting something out of the lesson, everyone is pared up with everyone, my first class i was with a guy who teachers sometimes.....he could have destroyed me if he wanted to, but he went slow, gave me some tips. Allowed me to see options. As long as you are honest in your attacks both people are getting something out of it.

If systema is not your cup of tea thats fine, it is different, it doesn't have that competition aspect that you mite like.
I would say that it is worth a try for anyone who enjoys martial arts.

You dont have to go to more then two classes a week to get allot out of it. (though 9 classes a week are offered)

One thing i noticed after my first class was that it was so much fun that i would probaly continue coming even if it didn't teach you how to fight.

The most important thing is that you enjoy it, try a class, if you like it stay, if you dont, thats fine to.

[Azzazzin]

Yeah I was there...

I was the big 16 yr old in the leather jacket...

The guy didn't come out to take my money so I couldn't get in with the class. But I was happier either way cuz then I could save some money if I watched and didn't like what I saw anyway...

I think I will go, just because it's interesting and could be usefull if you get attacked at full force (plus it teaches you to roll on the ground, which is deffinately usefull in a fight to prevent injury)...

But I kinda like when things are more organized, like lines everyone doing everything together like in karate or something
because then you can see your mistakes from looking at everone.

[Kingston]

Originally posted by Azzazzin
But I kinda like when things are more organized, like lines everyone doing everything together like in karate or something
because then you can see your mistakes from looking at everone.

lol the teacher was talking about this at the end of class that tonight.

In real life things arent nice and pretty, your techniques arent smooth and gracefull......he kind of showed this with the "new guy" when he asked him to attack full speed.

that class did have some "strange" stuff in it. He was just trying to show us different ways of moving.....it all translated farly smoothly to defending an attack or making an attack.

He teaches more of the basics in his classes.

because your only 16 you parents need to sign a form for you to be involved with the practices, so unless you already did that you couldn't have joined in anyway. Dont be afraid to go up and tell the teacher you want to take part in the class...show up about 5-10 minutes early bring 15 dollars, it will get you two classes, after that if you like it you can pay for a couple months. Dont be afraid to ask questions, if you dont like what you see ask "why did you do that thing in the begininer?" or "can you show me that thing again" Basicaly try it. Its allot different when you try it.

[Action Dan]

If anyone would like to come and train with us at Urban Krav Maga London Ontario, feel free to drop in sometime.

Our website with the schedule: www.urban-kravmaga.com

Regards

Dan

[rocinhajj]

for self defense I would say KRAV..systema I am familar with this guy in Toronto (Thornhill) Valdimir Vassiliev and was not as impressed..but just my opinion..

[Vorago]

Hey Kingston, what kind of Systema do you learn? I know theirs suppose to be the Ryabko and the Kadochnikov versions.

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by Vorago

Hey Kingston, what kind of Systema do you learn? I know theirs suppose to be the Ryabko and the Kadochnikov versions.

Hate to disappoint you but check the dates, eh? The last post by Kingston(in this thread) was almost 5 years ago...

[Vorago]

Haha, my bad.