Can you defend yourself at work?

Tom Yum · 06-13-2003, 04:28 PM

Court upholds firing of worker over fight
Appellate judges toss out damages award of $335,000
Bob Egelko, Chronicle Staff Writer
Friday, June 13, 2003
©2003 San Francisco Chronicle | Feedback

URL: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...13/BA30288.DTL

Hector Escalante made a mistake when he stopped trying to flee the onrushing attack of a co-worker at a Southern California art studio and decided to defend himself.

At least that was the conclusion of Escalante's employer, who fired him from his job as a printmaker. This week, a state appellate court ruled that the firing was legal.

In a ruling made public Tuesday, the court said it sympathized with Escalante, but his employer had the right to fire him for taking part in a fight when he had the chance to retreat. Finding that the termination involved no violation of public policy, the three-judge panel threw out a damages award of $335,000 to Escalante.

"Retreat might not serve the victim's pride, or assuage his anger at being attacked, but it does tend to prevent escalation of the violence, and we cannot see why an employer should not be allowed to opt for that result," said Justice William Bedsworth.

Escalante's attorney Mark Weidmann said he would appeal to the state Supreme Court.

"It's shocking that you cannot defend yourself in the workplace or you're going to be subject to losing your job," said Weidmann, adding that his client had suffered brain damage in the attack. "Are you just supposed to sit there and take a beating?"

But Gary Bennett, attorney for Escalante's former employer, Solutions Unlimited of Fullerton, said a contrary ruling would have told employers "that they could never terminate anybody who was involved in a workplace altercation.

All they would have had to say was, 'I was defending myself.' "

Escalante, who had worked at the studio since 1996, was assaulted by co- worker Ion Stanei without provocation in February 1999, the court said.

According to trial testimony, Stanei started screaming at Escalante, swung a piece of wood at him, then hit him with a hammer or a box of screws.

Escalante fled, but Stanei chased him and threw a box of screws that hit him in the back. Escalante turned from 30 to 40 feet away, saw Stanei holding a large metal cap, and ran up and grabbed him in a bear hug. Stanei struck Escalante in the head with the cap, causing substantial bleeding.

Co-owner Jim Goetsch decided to fire both men, saying Escalante should have left the scene.

An Orange County jury awarded Escalante $450,000 in damages, finding that his firing violated his right to defend himself. The trial judge reduced the award to about $335,000, according to Weidmann.

___________________

I can't believe the nerve of that guy who started the fight! Never the less, it would be more interesting if Escalante was skilled in some MA.

Great Sage · 06-13-2003, 04:48 PM

Pretty insightful story Tom... Makes one think twice about fighting at work.

It seems Hector Escalante tried his best to avoid the confrontation... He did run away only to get followed — what else did they expect the man to do?

Oh well, now he needs to learn how to invest the settlement money.

brokenelbow · 06-13-2003, 11:01 PM

Over the last several months I've been training in CDT for those less than "lethal" situations where walking away isn't an option and neither is hurting the aggressor.

No matter what art you study you should always have a good set of techniques to handle the drunken uncle, the pissed off wife/girlfriend, the idiot tough guy wanna be 15 year old, the friend that wants to test your skills. It's strange to think that you could kick someones ass but get the crap beat out of you because you didn't want to hurt them, but it's not that uncommon.

I'llKungFuUrA$$ · 06-20-2003, 04:32 AM

I think that's horse-s**t. That guy wasn't even really defending himself... just trying to subdue the attacker and he gets fired over it?! What a bunch of crap! Even something as seemingly passive as Aikido will get you fired. Just yesterday at work, some jerk-off (probably a closet-racist) got really s***ty with this really cool black guy I work with named Steve. Saying he was rude and he threatened him and all that. Now, I don't know Steve too well, but I know that he's a cool guy, real nice and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be rude to anyone unless they were just intolerably rude to him. Frankly, folks... that's kind of a rarity, I'm sure. But, hey, people suck a lot of the time. They just do.

So after all the heat dies down, I went in the back room (also the loading area) to see how he was and to stretch my legs and that asshole was still back there. Steve was just standing around and he starts yellin' at me!

'Cause I "Just want[ed] to see what the f**k was goin' on"... which was sort of true. But I just wanted to sympathize. Now he was getting s**tty and I was getting ready to put all I've learned to the test, if I had to, but I'm glad nothing like that happened because if I had to defend myself, I'd have gotten fired... which is a crock of s**t. I don't usually say stuff like this... my dad would, though. But it goes to show where liberal thinking can take you.

TracyKarate · 06-24-2003, 04:17 AM

There is a saying that goes "Better judged by twelve than carried by six."
What it means is that in a situation where society tells us we should flee at all costs, Nature can tell us otherwise in that we my need to resort to violence as a means of preservation. In such a situation it is better to defend yourself and go before a jury of twelve men than to be carried by six pall bearers at your own funeral.

Szczepankiewicz · 06-24-2003, 11:40 AM

Quote:

"Better judged by twelve than carried by six."

Ahh yes. You can recite this mantra to yourself when you're holding your ankles in Federal Pound Me in the Ass Prison....

retired · 06-24-2003, 02:08 PM

If im in work & someone attacks me i'll Smack the Fu***er even if i do loose my job, then i'll hunt him down like the piece of S**t he is.

CHOKE UK · 06-24-2003, 02:15 PM

[quote]Originally posted by TracyKarate
[b]There is a saying that goes "Better judged by twelve than carried by six."

What a well thought out quote !
Where did you get it from Tracey ?

sk12879 · 06-25-2003, 01:25 PM

[quote]Originally posted by CHOKE UK
[b]

Quote:

Originally posted by TracyKarate
There is a saying that goes "Better judged by twelve than carried by six."

What a well thought out quote !
Where did you get it from Tracey ?

It's in an Ice Cube song (I think Steady Mobbin). That's where I got it from. Not sure where Tracy got it from.

brokenelbow · 07-01-2003, 12:29 AM

I heard it back in the 80's from my sensei, he was referring to life and death. Being 30 to 40 feet away is considered a somewhat safe distance.

falcon3624 · 07-02-2003, 02:17 PM

I checked on this policy at the office I work at and they are the same way. If you get in a fight whether or not if you started it you get fired. So basically if someone comes up and smacks you and you run they get fired and you stay but then you look like a bitch. If they hit you and you hit back or even resist you loose your job.

I would still kick the sh@t out of them and just keep my dignity.

Tom Yum · 07-02-2003, 02:34 PM

One of my MA colleagues is a ex-competitve fighter and good at what he does (Altman's Gym). Allthough his better fight days are over, he has encountered work related difficulties from folks, unbeknown to them, that he fought in the PKA & ISKF.

People can be total morons at sizing up others.

falcon3624 · 07-02-2003, 02:42 PM

I think everyone gets that. I have been working at the place I am at for a long time and alot of people know that I am a BB so I get messed with alot and people are always coming and trying to start something just to see what I can do. I mean I understand why the policy is in place here because I work at a shipyard and we have a lot of mexicans and before that policy the thing for them to do was have gang fights in the parking lot after work. There used to be alot of fights every week out here before they put that policy into effect and tried it out a few times. I admit they I had been in several fights in the parking lot and the policy keeps me from fighting until I find someone that is worthy enough to loose my job so I can kick there ass.

Tom Yum · 07-02-2003, 02:47 PM

Dude, I would rather be a Mexican's friend than his enemy...lol But if you're caught in the middle of a gang fight, its better to GTFO. Be carefull!

falcon3624 · 07-02-2003, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tom Yum
Dude, I would rather be a Mexican's friend than his enemy...lol But if you're caught in the middle of a gang fight, its better to GTFO. Be carefull!

O no, lol. I never got in the gang fights.....I let the mexicans have at that. I meant I have got in some one on one fights out there...lol

06-13-2003, 04:28 PM	#1 (permalink)
Tom Yum Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Here and there. Posts: 11,307 Groans: 1 Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts	Can you defend yourself at work? Court upholds firing of worker over fight Appellate judges toss out damages award of $335,000 Bob Egelko, Chronicle Staff Writer Friday, June 13, 2003 ©2003 San Francisco Chronicle \| Feedback URL: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...13/BA30288.DTL Hector Escalante made a mistake when he stopped trying to flee the onrushing attack of a co-worker at a Southern California art studio and decided to defend himself. At least that was the conclusion of Escalante's employer, who fired him from his job as a printmaker. This week, a state appellate court ruled that the firing was legal. In a ruling made public Tuesday, the court said it sympathized with Escalante, but his employer had the right to fire him for taking part in a fight when he had the chance to retreat. Finding that the termination involved no violation of public policy, the three-judge panel threw out a damages award of $335,000 to Escalante. "Retreat might not serve the victim's pride, or assuage his anger at being attacked, but it does tend to prevent escalation of the violence, and we cannot see why an employer should not be allowed to opt for that result," said Justice William Bedsworth. Escalante's attorney Mark Weidmann said he would appeal to the state Supreme Court. "It's shocking that you cannot defend yourself in the workplace or you're going to be subject to losing your job," said Weidmann, adding that his client had suffered brain damage in the attack. "Are you just supposed to sit there and take a beating?" But Gary Bennett, attorney for Escalante's former employer, Solutions Unlimited of Fullerton, said a contrary ruling would have told employers "that they could never terminate anybody who was involved in a workplace altercation. All they would have had to say was, 'I was defending myself.' " Escalante, who had worked at the studio since 1996, was assaulted by co- worker Ion Stanei without provocation in February 1999, the court said. According to trial testimony, Stanei started screaming at Escalante, swung a piece of wood at him, then hit him with a hammer or a box of screws. Escalante fled, but Stanei chased him and threw a box of screws that hit him in the back. Escalante turned from 30 to 40 feet away, saw Stanei holding a large metal cap, and ran up and grabbed him in a bear hug. Stanei struck Escalante in the head with the cap, causing substantial bleeding. Co-owner Jim Goetsch decided to fire both men, saying Escalante should have left the scene. An Orange County jury awarded Escalante $450,000 in damages, finding that his firing violated his right to defend himself. The trial judge reduced the award to about $335,000, according to Weidmann. ___________________ I can't believe the nerve of that guy who started the fight! Never the less, it would be more interesting if Escalante was skilled in some MA. __________________ Love it, leave it or fix it.

06-13-2003, 04:48 PM	#2 (permalink)
Great Sage Registered User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Nowhere, USA... Posts: 510 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pretty insightful story Tom... Makes one think twice about fighting at work. It seems Hector Escalante tried his best to avoid the confrontation... He did run away only to get followed — what else did they expect the man to do? Oh well, now he needs to learn how to invest the settlement money. __________________ The sage experiences without abstraction, And accomplishes without action; He accepts the ebb and flow of things, Nurtures them, but does not own them, And lives, but does not dwell.

06-20-2003, 04:32 AM	#4 (permalink)
I'llKungFuUrA$$ Novice Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Indianapolis, Indiana Posts: 17 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Can you defend yourself at work? I think that's horse-st. That guy wasn't even really defending himself... just trying to subdue the attacker and he gets fired over it?! What a bunch of crap! Even something as seemingly passive as Aikido will get you fired. Just yesterday at work, some jerk-off (probably a closet-racist) got really sty with this really cool black guy I work with named Steve. Saying he was rude and he threatened him and all that. Now, I don't know Steve too well, but I know that he's a cool guy, real nice and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be rude to anyone unless they were just intolerably rude to him. Frankly, folks... that's kind of a rarity, I'm sure. But, hey, people suck a lot of the time. They just do. So after all the heat dies down, I went in the back room (also the loading area) to see how he was and to stretch my legs and that asshole was still back there. Steve was just standing around and he starts yellin' at me! 'Cause I "Just want[ed] to see what the fk was goin' on"... which was sort of true. But I just wanted to sympathize. Now he was getting stty and I was getting ready to put all I've learned to the test, if I had to, but I'm glad nothing like that happened because if I had to defend myself, I'd have gotten fired... which is a crock of st. I don't usually say stuff like this... my dad would, though. But it goes to show where liberal thinking can take you. __________________ "Even if one's head were to be suddenly cut off, he will still be able to do one more act with certainty. With martial valor, if one becomes like a revengeful ghost and shows great determination, though his head is cut off, he should not die." - Yamamoto Tsunetomo Last edited by I'llKungFuUrA$$; 06-20-2003 at 04:40 AM.*

06-24-2003, 04:17 AM	#5 (permalink)
TracyKarate Registered User Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 193 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	There is a saying that goes "Better judged by twelve than carried by six." What it means is that in a situation where society tells us we should flee at all costs, Nature can tell us otherwise in that we my need to resort to violence as a means of preservation. In such a situation it is better to defend yourself and go before a jury of twelve men than to be carried by six pall bearers at your own funeral. __________________ "The mind does not choose the situation, but through practice can choose how it is to be realized."

07-02-2003, 02:34 PM	#12 (permalink)
Tom Yum Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Here and there. Posts: 11,307 Groans: 1 Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts	One of my MA colleagues is a ex-competitve fighter and good at what he does (Altman's Gym). Allthough his better fight days are over, he has encountered work related difficulties from folks, unbeknown to them, that he fought in the PKA & ISKF. People can be total morons at sizing up others. __________________ Love it, leave it or fix it.

06-13-2003, 11:01 PM	#3 (permalink)
brokenelbow Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 520 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Over the last several months I've been training in CDT for those less than "lethal" situations where walking away isn't an option and neither is hurting the aggressor. No matter what art you study you should always have a good set of techniques to handle the drunken uncle, the pissed off wife/girlfriend, the idiot tough guy wanna be 15 year old, the friend that wants to test your skills. It's strange to think that you could kick someones ass but get the crap beat out of you because you didn't want to hurt them, but it's not that uncommon.

06-24-2003, 02:08 PM	#7 (permalink)
retired Registered User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: wales-great britain Posts: 886 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	If im in work & someone attacks me i'll Smack the Fu*er even if i do loose my job, then i'll hunt him down like the piece of St he is.

06-24-2003, 02:15 PM	#8 (permalink)
CHOKE UK Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: UNITED KINGDOM Posts: 374 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by TracyKarate [b]There is a saying that goes "Better judged by twelve than carried by six." What a well thought out quote ! Where did you get it from Tracey ?

07-01-2003, 12:29 AM	#10 (permalink)
brokenelbow Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 520 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	I heard it back in the 80's from my sensei, he was referring to life and death. Being 30 to 40 feet away is considered a somewhat safe distance.

07-02-2003, 02:17 PM	#11 (permalink)
falcon3624 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Louisiana Posts: 946 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	I checked on this policy at the office I work at and they are the same way. If you get in a fight whether or not if you started it you get fired. So basically if someone comes up and smacks you and you run they get fired and you stay but then you look like a bitch. If they hit you and you hit back or even resist you loose your job. I would still kick the sh@t out of them and just keep my dignity.

07-02-2003, 02:42 PM	#13 (permalink)
falcon3624 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Louisiana Posts: 946 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	I think everyone gets that. I have been working at the place I am at for a long time and alot of people know that I am a BB so I get messed with alot and people are always coming and trying to start something just to see what I can do. I mean I understand why the policy is in place here because I work at a shipyard and we have a lot of mexicans and before that policy the thing for them to do was have gang fights in the parking lot after work. There used to be alot of fights every week out here before they put that policy into effect and tried it out a few times. I admit they I had been in several fights in the parking lot and the policy keeps me from fighting until I find someone that is worthy enough to loose my job so I can kick there ass.

07-02-2003, 02:47 PM	#14 (permalink)
Tom Yum Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Here and there. Posts: 11,307 Groans: 1 Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts	Dude, I would rather be a Mexican's friend than his enemy...lol But if you're caught in the middle of a gang fight, its better to GTFO. Be carefull! __________________ Love it, leave it or fix it.

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