Kung-fu Anyone?

[Great Sage]

We’ve all heard the stories concerning kung-fu mysticism, magic and might... Kung-fu is generally accepted by newbies to hold secret powers and sorcery. I’d like to know about everyone’s true experience or knowledge of kung-fu. Here's my analysis.

Almost all kung-fu styles are rooted in Chinese philosophy and ideology. It’s a cultural attitude to cultivate “chi” or the internal energy. Hence, even the most effective Chinese arts will advocate “Chi,” even though the primary focus may be toward fighting applications.

I’m sure there are effective kung-fu out there, but I’ve never seen it. My older brother studied Choy Li Fat, Praying Mantis and Tai Chi. Unfortunately, sparring with him is like playing with a third grader. I find kung-fu to be overcommitted and lacking in power on offense and weak and overexaggerated on defense. Chol Li’s mirror hand block and scooping fist are two techniques you don’t want to use... Trying to scoop someone’s kick is very risky, and executing a flowery palm outward block can ruin you. The underlining curriculum is ofcourse the development of “chi.”

Needless to say, my experience does not define kung-fu, however one needs to be able to distinguish the cultural beliefs of kung-fu from its true effectiveness. Many misinformed minions have taken the “chi” theory out of context and as a result get pancaked...

[Szczepankiewicz]

sparring with him is like playing with a third grader

It's pretty sad when a TKD warrior can kick your ass that easily.


ON a serious note, I'm actually going down to the local Shao Lin school this Saturday. One of my co-workers is a black belt and I get to watch the advanced class.


Suuuuuweeeeeeet!

I'll post back on my experiences.

Spanky

[Nick]

Huh, we usually don't bash Kung-Fu... a nice change.

Later...

[Szczepankiewicz]

Hey, I'm not bashin' kung fu. A lot of the stuff I do is based off of Chaun Fa.

[BB Wolf]

There is some good stuff in Kung Fu, but like many trad. MA's , it has the weight of lots of tradition on top of it, for better or worse.
Personally I have a lot of respect for the Wing Chun system and at some point, would like to study it, if I were to pick another Kung Fu system to study.

[BadgerFu57]

When can we expect to see Shaolin Monks in MMA competition?















(this was a joke.... ha ha.... laugh with me.... c'mon, don't be so serious all the time.)

[Lizard]

There are many different styles of gong fu, some will be more effective than others. I've heard some good things about wing chun, but I don't think wushu would be very effective in a fight.

On the other hand, wushu looks good and probably improves balance and flexibility.

I have to agree that beleif in chi can be very bad for an art when it comes to real fighting.

[chris davis 200]

I have only studied internal kung fu systems.

But bear in mind that kung fu is like saying martial arts. there are well over 50 distinct external systems, 3 major internal ones but with many derivatives and family styles you are talking about hundreds of methods of combat in total.

There are some very flashy and fairly uneffective forms of kung fu. Wu shu is actually a national 'gymnastic sport' based on kung fu. But does not (usually) proffess to be anything other than gymnastics.

There are also very direct powerful and effective forms of kung fu, Hsing I, hung gar, chuan fa, pak mei, Wing Chun etc. there are also styles that have boxing style stances and techniques, these have been coined by san soo practitioners.

There are also arts that focus heavily on grappling and chin na, such as eagle claw (which has alot of mc dojo's) is a very good example, i have been on the end of an eagle claw attack and as an experienced grappler i was quite shocked! there are some styles who's name escapes me that are extremely similar to Judo or BJJ, with a slightly larger amount of throwing techniques.

There are also animal forms that have been very successful in previous full contact events.

Kung fu as a general style does not exist, but the term has been coined by many mc dojo's and sub standard schools - having a 'black belt' in Shaolin kung fu is quite a funny thing - the belt system is japanese and was developed by the founder of judo - a school claiming to teach shaolin styles should not really be using the belt system. but hey whatever floats ya boat!

to say that Kung fu is not an effective system is like saying that fighting is not an effective system.

I totally agree that there is a HUGE amount of crappy people out there claiming to do this and do that, but dont you get that in every single thing - not just martial arts based?

Cheers
chris

[Great Sage]

Very insightful post Chris...

You are right. Kung-fu is so broad that it’s really hard to comment on it’s totality. Furthermore, the purpose of each kung-fu style is not always fighting. Some are health related, while some were created to combat specific styles... However, the problem is that few kung-fu systems are applicable to modern fighting.

Many kung-fu systems were created from theory. There’s something awkward about a guy learning to fight from a praying mantis... We’re not at all like praying mantis and I’ve never seen a praying mantis beat up a person. Then another guy comes along and copies a Tiger. The logic being a tiger can easily pounce a praying mantis

The average Chinese instigator 1000 years ago was most likely 5’5” 130 lb. and using static kung-fu postures to attack you. Today, it’s a 6’4” 240 lb. athletic jock who wants to beat you up for the sake of being macho. So when you use your “Hungry Tiger Catches Goat” (A real Hungar technique), you may not get the expected result.

In regards to belt systems, many kung-fu schools have adopted color sashes or belts for the sake of marketing and promotion. On average, people like to know that they’re going somewhere and a color belt change is a psychological booster. Unfortunately, this also means faster promotions resulting in less credibility.

[chris davis 200]

Many kung-fu systems were created from theory. There’s something awkward about a guy learning to fight from a praying mantis... We’re not at all like praying mantis and I’ve never seen a praying mantis beat up a person. Then another guy comes along and copies a Tiger. The logic being a tiger can easily pounce a praying mantis

This is partially the truth.

also involved in animal styles is the deveolpment of the animal mentality. Many of the animal styles were development of existing (non animal based) fighting methods with the mentality of that animal involved.

For example the monkey styles portray cautious/ scared nature of the monkey. The tiger styles are agressive.

there are animal forms in hsing i although they do not show the characteristics of any of the animals but more the feeling of that animals attack stratergy.

The animal forms were not developed from nothing, just by watching the animals fight, otherwise Dragons and phoenix's must have once lived to have been observed. they developed from existing fighting systems, to have a different ' flavour'.

Today, it’s a 6’4” 240 lb. athletic jock who wants to beat you up for the sake of being macho.

during the boxer rebellion in the early part of the 20th century the martial arts masters of china (the boxers) took on forign aggressors. These guys were western proffessional soldiers. The boxers lost due to the fact that they were outgunned but they killed many many westerners with their weaponry skills and their hands.

so although partially true of the current MA scene i do not beleive that these styles are as useless as you make out, especially against westerners of people of bigger stature.

cheers
chris

[Tom Yum]

Chris, I would like to hear more about your experiences and observations with eagle claw, pak mei, chuan fa and xing yi.

[Great Sage]

Ah... This thread is getting more exciting.

There’s a book entitled, “Kung-fu Elements” stating that thousands, if not millions of kung-fu styles were developed in China. There were people developing styles from partial kung-fu styles everywhere... Now if you were to do that today, we would have many incomplete and incompentant fighting styles, because not anyone is a master martial artist.

Basically, my point is that a lot of kung-fu styles are not rooted in sound systems. It is well known in Shaolin kung-fu that a few drop-out escapees carried the lineage of certain styles because the Temple was burned. Furthermore, few masters actually taught their best techniques... In fact, many went to their graves without ever teaching them.

The legitamacy of kung-fu speaks for itself, but you shouldn’t take it for granted. Kung-fu in comparison to many arts is more defined by cultural beliefs than fighting principles. In China, living the martial way involves your entire livelihood. In fact, students still live with their masters.

My understanding of the Boxer’s Rebellion is that kung-fu masters thought that their “chi” would stop bullets... I don’t know that they actually fought foreigners in hand-to-hand combat. More likely, the foreigners simply shot them.

[Ripley]

I train in a UK kung-fu system 'Lau Gar' - brought to the UK by a Chinese guy (Jeremy Yau) in the early 70s. It's a 'hard' external style and very different to the traditional 'Shaolin' styles. I spent an hour in the gym comparing styles with a Shaolin student and proved that!
Re. the point about kung-fu including a number of techniques that wouldn't be applicable today - I'd have to agree. We train techniques like 'flower fist form' in the dojo, but we train them for conditioning and flexibility. It's generalising, but I'd have to say that we train kick-boxing (mouthguards, pads etc.) for fighting application and syllabus for conditioning and (some) techniques.
I think that the problem with a lot of kung-fu syllabus is that it's difficult to judge it's worth without a no holds barred fight. Who's to say that those Shaolin monks wouldn't down Ernesto Hoost with a spear hand to the throat or a tiger claw to the eyes? Place your bets please...

[jmd161]

It is said that there are 1000 different styles of kung fu.Whether that's true or not i don't know.But for someone to say kung fu is not applicable in fighting is crazy.It was created and used for combat.Kung fu was used on the battle fields,and streets of china.

The problem with kung fu comes from the teachers and students that now teach and study it.Kung fu is filled with history and stories of great fighters and martial artist.Back then being able to fight was usually the difference between life and death.Masters and students alike went around testing each others kung fu.If you moved to a new town and opened a school you were sure to be challanged by local masters.So your skill and fighting prowess had to be up to par.

The reason kung fu has lost it's shine so to say.Is because times are different now.If you open a Mc Dojo or a Mc Kwoon now who is going to test your skill?

No one!

If you don't train hard away from your teacher. How many of them really care? On top of that how many ppl want to train the old school way in kung fu? Many ppl say they do and then quit because it's to hard.My sifu teaches us for free,but there is still only two of us.Because everyone quits after the first 30 min of training.Then add to it everyone wants to be Bruce Lee,Jackie Chan or Jet Li today.No one wants to learn the basics and build their foundation.Everyone wants to build their house roof first.

Then it also goes back to teachers.How many would be able to keep their schools open if they pushed their students too much? Also the fact that you have ppl learn kung fu for a few yrs and think they know it all.These same ppl turn around and open half a$$ schools which turns out half a$$ students.There are many reasons why kung fu is in the state it's in.These are a few of the major reasons for it's downfall.

You also add the fact that some schools don't spar or when they do spar do nothing more than kickboxing.It all adds to the reason why ppl see kung fu as a dance these days.Thanks to MMA,Grappling arts,and UFC/Pride.People in the kung fu dream world are starting to wake up.

jeff

[platinum_angel]

just a question.

out of your 18 years of kung-fu do you think it would of been better spent training in some other art such as Muay Thai, JKD, or BJJ.

i was looking at black belt magazine and there was a article in there called the spirit of the crane and tiger kung fu. and the guy that was presenting the article had like no muscles and he did tiger stance he smiled and it looked like he was in rape stance or something. he was supposed to be a grandmaster. now i don't know much about kung fu but i thought you were supposed to be a little more phisicaly trained then that. and it seemed to me the stances like crane stance wouldn't be that practical.

now i'm not trying to bash kung fu (i don't know anything about it)