Is BJJ applicable to the streets?

[chris davis 200]

Hi guys,

Boy am i gonna get some sh@# for this thread!

But oh well.

I think that it is quite obvious that BJJ is a very dominant part of the sport MMA fighters arsenal and without it someone 'could' be lacking somwhat!

But how applicable is it to realistic street defence?

We all know that BJJ has a focus on ground techniques, it has some stand up methods but not to any great degree.

You could mix in some MT which seems very popular but this still does not change game once you hit the deck.

the fundimental flaw in BJJ as a self defence art is that it drills your body to stay on the ground once there.

We all know why this is a bad idea right?

Interested in you honest opinions on the application of BJJ outside the ring.

cheers
Chris (awaiting a flaming) davis

Ps. I have a huge amount respect for BJJ and what it has achieved - for the record!

[Szczepankiewicz]

Defend.net is not the everloving [b] BJJ is the only art [b] troll nest it used to be.


The following diatribe is my opinion, take it for what you will:

I have 5 years background in Jujutsu, about 2 years in Judo and about 3 months of part time GJJ. I have also done some crosstraining in American Kenpo (sparring) and Hapkido(seminar and videos). What I have found is that all of these arts have similar techniques based on a universal set of principles.


The principles of how and when to apply leverage, distance, timing, adrenaline response, strategy and tactics, and training methodolgy, etc etc is uniform through experienced artists that I have come in contact with. They explain it differently, they approach it differently, they train it differently, but if they are truly realistic, they usually end up with the same categorical conclusions.

Same God, different methods of worship.

I would tenatively agree with your statement, based on my somewhat limited knowledge of BJJ. Renzo Gracie attempts to explain the BJJ side of this argument is both of his books on the subject.

He makes some very valid points (I can quote if needed) but still does to argue his points to a logical conclusion.

What I have learned in training is to avoid these three training fallacies:

1) Always do XXXX
2) Never do XXXX
3) If they do this just do XXXX


As soon as you say you need to crosstrain in MT (or other arts) to compliment your BJJ you're admitting that BJJ is nowhere near the complete system that so many claim it to be. Most will recognize that there does not exist a single complete art, but that is another argument altogether.

Getting back on track, the art of GJJ/BJJ is about techniques and body mechanics that work extremely well. It has advantages and disadvantages just like everything else you can use.

Grappling or striking
Standing or on the ground
Fight or Flight
Weapons or empty hands

Each point can (and has been) argued ad nauseim. It is up to the instructor AND the student to figure out what is applicable and when.

There are many times you don't want to be on the ground. But there are also times when you do. And I'm not talking about flat on your back having someone in your guard. I'm talking about any situation where you find that anything other than the bottom of your feet is touching the ground.

Most arguments against BJJ for 'self defense' are made by people who've never trained in the art. Similarly, most online defenders of BJJ are the less experienced neo-zealots. I've tried to look at it from different perspectives and often you'll find me bashing one side or the other just because it's so much fun!

Spanky

[Mr. Heel Hook]

I am not a zealot (or neo anything), and have been doing GJJ for sometime now. To water down the answer in a more palatable, less desperately cerebral fashion...how many of your average bloke can escape the mount or the guard? Martial artist make up 1% of the population. And even in that 1% how many of them can escape the mount or guard? It's not a hard question to think about.

[chris davis 200]

how many of your average bloke can escape the mount or the guard? Martial artist make up 1% of the population. And even in that 1% how many of them can escape the mount or guard?

Not many.

Now conversly -

How many people in the mount can defend against 3 or 4 other people kicking, punchinig, stabbing and bottleing the person attacking their friend?

Not many.

[Mr. Heel Hook]

Why would you mount someone with that many people fighting? It's simple common sense not to...

[chris davis 200]

I was in a situation recently (which resulted in me having a broken nose) Where i ended uop toe to toe with a bigger guy than me that was harrasing someone.

The upshot of it was that we went at it.

About a minute into the fight 4 of his friends appeared from behind the corner (may have been at a cash machine or just having a piss) I ended up fighting 5 people -

In the first instance it was one -

I threw the guy and backed away - then the others appeared and canme in.

Now if i had throw him and gone to ground got into a mount etc then i would not be speaking here now.

It would have been suicidal.

It is not always as clear cut as the person standing infront of you.

[Mr. Heel Hook]

Not true totally. In a street fight it is preferred to be a Knee on stomach or ribs position. The reason is you can get up right away and address your attackers or run away. Knee on stomach or ribs is meant for mobility. Either way though, that's just bad luck that his buddies showed up.

[chris davis 200]

sounds like a good plan - not sure how you would maintain that position against someone stronger and bigger than you.

Bad luck has nothing to do with it - reality is that this is a distinct posibility - people rearly travel alone, when in an environment with the potential to cause a confrontation. (i am thinking outside pubs -to and from pubs, etc)

[Mr. Heel Hook]

Having the full weight of Knee on Stomach while drilling someone in the face I would think would be enough to maintane control. Or at least side control. The person in on their side and are pinched between your back knee and front foot. Tie an arm up around their own neck (hand behind the head) and break them down from their. Unless of course you have mounted Bob Sapp...than who knows what the hell you can do...
As for the Pub thing...nothing really to say to that. What can you do but bring friends too??? Or perhaps play a bit of a mind game with the guy. "If you are such a badass, why don't we go it one on one?" But in all honesty, I don't know what I would do. Things tend to happen very fast.

[MrBoxerGrappler]

To speak from experience...


As far as the "Pub" thing goes. I am a full blooded Irishman and I much like you by the sounds of it have a very short temper for people harassing, mocking, just being plan bullies. I have ended up in situations just like the one you spoke of and I feel that my grappling training has helped me immensely in just that situation..Just on the sheer fact that 89.9% of fights end up on the ground in the first few moments once on the ground and being confronted by two attackers the JJ and Grappling that I have learned have made me far more capable to defend myself then I would have been with just my boxing background especially when the odds are against me.

[Great Sage]

Like any martial art, BJJ has it’s pros and cons. Likewise, no amount of training can predetermine the uncertainty of street fighting. However, the key better execution is to drill, drill and drill until the techniques become instinctive.

For example, my BJJ instructor was teaching me this takedown that required me to move in high, take an arm and throw the opponent down from behind. Executed with precision and speed the technique works... However, if you fail grab the arm or move to the safe zone, you might be in for some pain.

On the subject of effectiveness... BJJ is fundalmentally the most solid one-on-one martial art. Even with boxing knowledge, if I’m up against a big guy that’s relentlessly pursuing me, I’m going for a submission. I won’t hesistate to take the fight to the ground if it gives me an advantage.

Against multiple assailants, you do what you can... No martial art, including BJJ has the answers for defending against more than one attacker. Perhaps simulations may help, but there’s always an unknown element in reality: a gun, knife, more baddies.

But to answer the initial question. Yes, I believe BJJ is a good self-defense art. You learn the fundamentals of leverage, control and submissions.

[Szczepankiewicz]

That was an excellent post. Well spoken, organized and straight to the point.

Who are you and what have you done with Great Sage????



I would have to agree with The Great One on this...

Spanky

[gracilva]

Things tend to happen very fast.
as mr heel hook said.
if u try and mount an expierienced bjj'er then yes you will be grappling for a while, but against a street fighter with no bjj expirience, once on the mount, an arm bar or choke would take all of 2 seconds

[Szczepankiewicz]

an arm bar or choke would take all of 2 seconds

Ahhh, the rhetoric has made a triumphant return!

[chris davis 200]

Excellent posts guys.

I agree with much of what you hqave said.

one thing though,

However, the key better execution is to drill, drill and drill until the techniques become instinctive.

does this make the 'go to ground and stay there (until he is delt with)' responce instinctive? If so i feel this could be a bit of a hinderance.

thanks again ppl.

Chris