taken to the ground

[Roland]

A good grappler can tie up your hands - sort of hard to do stuff like fish-hooking, soft tissue grabs, eye gouges, etc. when your hands aren't free. However, that doesn't invalidate these options since a grappler can get careless but I just wanted to point out that these aren't really "gimmes" or magic bullets, just...options.

Biting can be done - however, if you're close enough to bite the grappler, the grappler is probably going to react in one of three ways:

1) Scream like a girl and shove you away, thus enabling you to escape.

2) Scream like an enraged bull and proceed to deny you the assets you need to bite, i.e. your teeth, by knocking them out of your mouth using a series of anger fueled punches.

3) Bite you back - except he's got position on you so guess who has the advantage? Chances are, you'll pass out from blood loss before he does, after which he'll probably consume your corpse with a nice bottle of Chianti with some fava beans on the side.

[smith&wesson]

A good technique is to grab the fingers in the arm pit of your opponent. This really hurts
A triangle choke in a street fight is a very bad idea. It can lead to death. Or - if you open the choke to see if he still is alive he can easily continue with punches.

[falcon3624]

Just do it until they go limp and then let go. Most people on the street are going to struggle to the point where they are about to pass out and go limp. I had this happen one time when I caught a guy in a guillotine choke. I held it til he was on the verge of passing out, and when I let go he was so close he just fell down and layed there.

[MrPoopy]

We discussed some things like that back when I was doing BJJ. One of the big things was what if you were armbarring someone and he decided to bite the leg you had to put over his face to get the armbar?

The conclusion:

Who cares? He's going to have a broken arm.

And if you were on top of him and he starts clawing your face, it'd make a good oppurtunity for a key lock. If you've trained in BJJ for a little while, then you've found ways to get your moves to work in a struggle. If you were in a street fight and had a guy clawing your face, then he's really struggling.

[smith&wesson]

Originally posted by MrPoopy
and he decided to bite the leg you had to put over his face to get the armbar?

An armbar hurts too much. I don't think he feels the lust to bite you in this position. The only chance for him is to go out of the bar or to give up.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Wrote an article about proper kino mutai in relationship to grappling, (the hows and how nots) etc.

I don't know if it's still around, but I'll try and find it.

Ryu

[jitzmandala]

If positional dominance is attained and maintained, then any technique within the individuals toolbox that is suitable for the job at hand is valid.

What then are the deciding factors as to who wins and looses on the ground? It's my opinion that the winner is the one who delivers the right tool at the the right time for the right reason.

My thought is that the one who has positional dominance with his hips in relationship to the opponent, will win given they have the same set of tools to work with, and know WHEN to use them.

Thus if I am in a cross sides top position, and you gouge me in the eye from bottom position, using that as an opportunity to escape to guard and fight your way to top, you've used the eye gouge successfully! In this example you timed the eye poke, to give you a chance to create space to execute a change in position. The eye poke did not win the fight for you, you just found a useful context for it.

Now if a player is cross sides top, and you poke them in the eye, but do nothing to improve your position... now the top guy is pissed, and he's cross sides top, and he's dropping elbows and knees into your head, he's got both hands around your head driving his knee thru your chest with the meanest knee mount you've ever felt crushing your floating ribs, he's busting your teeth out when you turn over because of HIS eye gouging.... you get the picture? His delivery platform is is better then yours. How are you going to do anything effective off your back that he can't do better from top?

So it's my opinion that any grappling art gives the individual a valuable platform to deliver any number of techniques. The strategy of positional dominance in BJJ is valuable to me in this way. It allows a person to have not only a number of techniques to end or change the direction of a fight from any ground position, but it also gives a clear overall strategy to winning thru positional dominance, instead of via a 'bunch of moves'.

Just my .02 - hope it's helpful.

Dave in Oregon

[jitzmandala]

Originally posted by falcon3624
Just do it until they go limp and then let go. Most people on the street are going to struggle to the point where they are about to pass out and go limp. I had this happen one time when I caught a guy in a guillotine choke. I held it til he was on the verge of passing out, and when I let go he was so close he just fell down and layed there.

That's one of the things I like about BJJ is that most clubs always roll live after they teach technique and drill. The only time you have a compliant partner is when you're learning the technical aspects of the movement or submission. Near the end of class, you're FORCED to learn about the SETUP and TIMING.

You're so right too, you just get used to feeling the different between 'struggle' and focused technique. Huge difference and one is much more dangerous. Not to take away from the nut shot or the oil check, but they all have their place in a real fight.

Also the more one struggles when they are in a choke position, the deeper you can work the choke! That's the beauty of chokes in my opinion.

Anyways, havn't posted much here, but thought I would take this opportunity to say hello.

Dave in Oregon