The Ultimate in Martial Arts

nogard1980 · 08-13-2003, 12:22 PM

I understand the strong need for ground techniques in compitition and even in a street fight to a certain degree. But in a street fight where anything goes, if you take someone to the ground and clinch there body to yours, don't you stand a good chance of them either:
1: grabbing for your nuts
2: trying to jam a finger or thumb in your eye socket
3: you have there head pressed against your body and they decide they are hungry and just take a chunck out of wherever there mouth is.
4: any other dirty thing they can do.

I know this sounds like a dirty fighter, but when your fighting on the streets its all about servival and do what you have to. Is this ever a concern with a ground technician or is this something that is expected and thought out?

Ghost · 08-13-2003, 12:26 PM

Yes but what makes you think a BJJ guy wont do that too.

Difference is they can control you on the ground and do all that nasty stuff.

Think about it.

nogard1980 · 08-13-2003, 12:32 PM

excilent point, which is why in the future I would like to take some bjj and learn to do some controlling myself (to prevent and manipulate to a position that I could do it myself), I was just wonder if they actaully anticipated these situations and worked on prevention techniques.

Ghost · 08-13-2003, 12:33 PM

Dont know if they do but i think in a private lesson you would.

falcon3624 · 08-13-2003, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nogard1980
I was just wonder if they actaully anticipated these situations and worked on prevention techniques.

When you take someone down in BJJ the whole thing is to have control of their body. You want to be able to control them and keep them from doing those kinds of things. If I go to the ground and say the guy grabs for my nuts, well he just made a mistake because everytime he reaches out or tries to take one of those dirty shots he is opening up armbars, knee bars, choke holds, wrist locks, ankle locks, etc......One of the major things you learn in BJJ is that every action has a reaction and no matter what that guy tries to do on the ground an experienced grappler will have something to counter with.

nogard1980 · 08-13-2003, 01:31 PM

thanks for the insight. I don't think ( in a preventative sense ) that I would want to do many arm bars or head locks due to the fact that in a arm bar you are putting you leg close to the teeth and in a head lock you are either exposed to the teeth or a thumb in the eye. but the leg and anckle locks seem effective as your away from there teeth and hads, as well as your eyes are at a safe distance and you can protect the boys farely easily. I don't take any bjj, but when ever possible I like to watch ufc, pridefc, or k-1 tornaments on ppv. Infact this came to me last night when I was watching the rerun of pridefc and keeped on noticing situations of when the bjj technician was applying ground tactics that would leave someone open for these type of attacks. Thanks for clairify the most of my confusion.

falcon3624 · 08-13-2003, 01:36 PM

In an armbar all you have to do is move your leg down across the chest instead of across the face like you are thinking and they will never be able to bite you. I don't know what kind of choke hold you are refering too but when I get someone in a choke they are in no position to bite me. I would prefer going for armbars and choke holds more than leg locks because to get a leg lock you pretty much have to give up the mount and put yourself in a situation where you could be flipped and mounted or get the crap kicked out of you. If you are really good with leg locks they are devestating but if you are not that good then you should stick to the upper body.

nogard1980 · 08-13-2003, 01:54 PM

could be wrong but in a triangle choke your thighs are around his head area and an in a guilatine, unless you trap the arms with your legs, he could possibly reach up and stick a thumb in your eye or reach down and squeeze the grapes. but I do imagine there are a variety of choke holds to choose from that are less exposing. Great response on the arm bar, I can imagine the difference. I guess what they do in competition is similar to what they would do on the street, except in the street they would have more to consider and would watch what they are doing more.

falcon3624 · 08-13-2003, 02:03 PM

In a triangle choke one arm is pulled through but out to the side where he can't get a hold of anything. The other arm is on the other side of the legs and he can't grab your "grapes" because you have the lock on tight and it would not be possible for him to get to them with his arm that's loose. Once you get stuck in the triangle you are pretty much skrewed.

Next move.

nogard1980 · 08-13-2003, 02:33 PM

but that doesn't answer the question of putting the chin down and bitting.

falcon3624 · 08-13-2003, 02:37 PM

When you finish the triangle you grab the back of their head and pull it down. When you do this you are pushing there chin against you keeping the mouth closed to where they can't bite. I know it looks like a bad position with all those teeth right around the "grapes" but once you lock it on they won't get loose and they won't be biting.

nogard1980 · 08-13-2003, 02:42 PM

point taken.....raise your hand in victory. As I thought, I still have a lot to learn. Thanks for the insight.

Tom Yum · 08-13-2003, 02:43 PM

Paul Vunak has integrated biting into his grappling defense arsenal. From what seminar attendees tell me, he bites just enough for you to feel it, but not enough to break the skin. Check out his work in PFS - he is very familar with ground work. I think he's a purple belt in BJJ, but am not sure.

Biting is very easy to do and will release alot of holds. There are a lot of dirty tricks that are not practiced with BJJ, just as there are in boxing and muay thai.

Dirty tricks are just another level of techniques you add to your arsenal.

nogard1980 · 08-13-2003, 02:46 PM

showing my ignorance.........what is pfs?

Tom Yum · 08-13-2003, 03:27 PM

Progressive Fighting Systems

08-13-2003, 12:22 PM	#1 (permalink)
nogard1980 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Maryland Posts: 69 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	taken to the ground I understand the strong need for ground techniques in compitition and even in a street fight to a certain degree. But in a street fight where anything goes, if you take someone to the ground and clinch there body to yours, don't you stand a good chance of them either: 1: grabbing for your nuts 2: trying to jam a finger or thumb in your eye socket 3: you have there head pressed against your body and they decide they are hungry and just take a chunck out of wherever there mouth is. 4: any other dirty thing they can do. I know this sounds like a dirty fighter, but when your fighting on the streets its all about servival and do what you have to. Is this ever a concern with a ground technician or is this something that is expected and thought out?

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08-13-2003, 12:32 PM	#3 (permalink)
nogard1980 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Maryland Posts: 69 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	excilent point, which is why in the future I would like to take some bjj and learn to do some controlling myself (to prevent and manipulate to a position that I could do it myself), I was just wonder if they actaully anticipated these situations and worked on prevention techniques.

08-13-2003, 01:31 PM	#6 (permalink)
nogard1980 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Maryland Posts: 69 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	thanks for the insight. I don't think ( in a preventative sense ) that I would want to do many arm bars or head locks due to the fact that in a arm bar you are putting you leg close to the teeth and in a head lock you are either exposed to the teeth or a thumb in the eye. but the leg and anckle locks seem effective as your away from there teeth and hads, as well as your eyes are at a safe distance and you can protect the boys farely easily. I don't take any bjj, but when ever possible I like to watch ufc, pridefc, or k-1 tornaments on ppv. Infact this came to me last night when I was watching the rerun of pridefc and keeped on noticing situations of when the bjj technician was applying ground tactics that would leave someone open for these type of attacks. Thanks for clairify the most of my confusion.

08-13-2003, 01:36 PM	#7 (permalink)
falcon3624 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Louisiana Posts: 946 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	In an armbar all you have to do is move your leg down across the chest instead of across the face like you are thinking and they will never be able to bite you. I don't know what kind of choke hold you are refering too but when I get someone in a choke they are in no position to bite me. I would prefer going for armbars and choke holds more than leg locks because to get a leg lock you pretty much have to give up the mount and put yourself in a situation where you could be flipped and mounted or get the crap kicked out of you. If you are really good with leg locks they are devestating but if you are not that good then you should stick to the upper body.

08-13-2003, 01:54 PM	#8 (permalink)
nogard1980 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Maryland Posts: 69 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	could be wrong but in a triangle choke your thighs are around his head area and an in a guilatine, unless you trap the arms with your legs, he could possibly reach up and stick a thumb in your eye or reach down and squeeze the grapes. but I do imagine there are a variety of choke holds to choose from that are less exposing. Great response on the arm bar, I can imagine the difference. I guess what they do in competition is similar to what they would do on the street, except in the street they would have more to consider and would watch what they are doing more.

08-13-2003, 02:03 PM	#9 (permalink)
falcon3624 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Louisiana Posts: 946 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	In a triangle choke one arm is pulled through but out to the side where he can't get a hold of anything. The other arm is on the other side of the legs and he can't grab your "grapes" because you have the lock on tight and it would not be possible for him to get to them with his arm that's loose. Once you get stuck in the triangle you are pretty much skrewed. Next move.

08-13-2003, 02:33 PM	#10 (permalink)
nogard1980 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Maryland Posts: 69 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	but that doesn't answer the question of putting the chin down and bitting.

08-13-2003, 02:37 PM	#11 (permalink)
falcon3624 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Louisiana Posts: 946 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	When you finish the triangle you grab the back of their head and pull it down. When you do this you are pushing there chin against you keeping the mouth closed to where they can't bite. I know it looks like a bad position with all those teeth right around the "grapes" but once you lock it on they won't get loose and they won't be biting.

08-13-2003, 02:42 PM	#12 (permalink)
nogard1980 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Maryland Posts: 69 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	point taken.....raise your hand in victory. As I thought, I still have a lot to learn. Thanks for the insight.

08-13-2003, 02:43 PM	#13 (permalink)
Tom Yum Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Here and there. Posts: 11,573 Groans: 1 Groaned at 5 Times in 5 Posts	Paul Vunak has integrated biting into his grappling defense arsenal. From what seminar attendees tell me, he bites just enough for you to feel it, but not enough to break the skin. Check out his work in PFS - he is very familar with ground work. I think he's a purple belt in BJJ, but am not sure. Biting is very easy to do and will release alot of holds. There are a lot of dirty tricks that are not practiced with BJJ, just as there are in boxing and muay thai. Dirty tricks are just another level of techniques you add to your arsenal.

08-13-2003, 02:46 PM	#14 (permalink)
nogard1980 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Maryland Posts: 69 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	showing my ignorance.........what is pfs?

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08-13-2003, 03:27 PM	#15 (permalink)
Tom Yum Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Here and there. Posts: 11,573 Groans: 1 Groaned at 5 Times in 5 Posts	Progressive Fighting Systems