arts that are good but not for mma

[proud chinaman]

I HATE it when folk go muay thai and bjj are the best arts all other arts are useless cos they dont do well in ufc,etc, and that mma fighters are the hardest in the world, and then disrespect a load of other styles.
I agree that mma fighters and their arts are tough and deadly, but remember most arts were created during a time when they were needed, for them to survive they must have worked for people using them in real combat. Take for example gung fu. I do think that alot of the stuff in these styles are not to practical and are for show only, but wing chun and choy lil fat are two good examples of gung fu styles that probably do pretty crud at mma events, but save people's asses during times like war, real self defence situations etc.
As in wing chun alot of the moves are much more suited to the street with stuff like throat attacks, various eye attacks, knee stomps, and groin kicks. These simple moves are the stuff that will save yer butt in life or death scenarios, alot more quicker and easier to apply than a arm bar, choke hold or whatever, but obviously doing stuff like that would be out of place in a mma event wouldnt it? And before you say well if it doesnt work in the ring how can it work in the street or you found it to be bs when you tried it then just speak for yourself as wing chun has saved alot of peoples asses. Alot of the folk that go to my wing chun classes are people that have successfully applied wing chun in the street like policemen and bouncers. They aint about to join the mt,bjj bandwagon any time soon.Just because something didnt work for you doesnt mean it didnt work for someone else.

Wing chun has also worked in the ring against muay thai. A guy called wai po tang managed to beat a mt guy using wc.Its just a matter of training as most wc folk don't train for sport.

Believe it or not there are stuff thats to dangerous for mma. You honestly think that all sas, special attack squads, marines, seals etc dont have stuff more dangerous than the arts in mma? If russian spys who are experts in one hit kills(yes there is such a thing) enter ufc, i dont think many of the folk there would stand a chance.

Basically what i'm trying to say is that there are arts and fighters that are to deadly for sports, and that not all folk are training to enter ufc.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

arts too deadly for sports: double dagger arnis, tanto jitsu, old kenjitsu any chinese weapon art

no seriously, moost art have stood for this dillema, not doing matches because it was too dangerous or coming up with a way to still be able to test your skills against eachother

When these current so called deadly arts are invited to enter a MMA event, they say they will only enter if there are no rules at all as if these few rules there are stripped them from all effeciiveness and took away their winning techniques

No country will sanction a NO RULE match so hiding behind that, is weak but that's just IMHO

[Szczepankiewicz]

To find the true art and the true artists....


[size= 12]BRING ON THUNDERDOME![/size]




Everything else is gossip and conjecture...


Who run Bartertown?

[MrBoxerGrappler]

TWO MAN ENTER....ONE MAN LEAVE....TWO MAN ENTER....ONE MAN LEAVE!

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Originally posted by Szczepankiewicz
To find the true art and the true artists....


[size= 12]BRING ON THUNDERDOME![/size]




Everything else is gossip and conjecture...


Who run Bartertown?

Who will be sanctioning it?

[MrBoxerGrappler]

I will...


The United States of Team Death Squad.


TWO MAN ENTER...ONE MAN LEAVE

[Mr. Heel Hook]

OH YEAH! I CAME TO BRING THE PAIN HARDCORE!

To man enter one man leave!
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To man enter one man leave!
To man enter one man leave!
To man enter one man leave!
To man enter one man leave!
To man enter one man leave!
To man enter one man leave!
To man enter one man leave!
To man enter one man leave!
To man enter one man leave!
To man enter one man leave!
To man enter one man leave!
To man enter one man leave!
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CAN YOU DEFEAT THIS MAN!?
CAN YOOOOOOOOUUUUU!?

[Mr. Heel Hook]

Oh, and PS: Many a Navy Seal have gone to train with Rickson Gracie. Oh yeah, and Gracie Jiu Jitsu is now taught to Special Forces in this country.

[falcon3624]

Originally posted by proud chinaman
If russian spys who are experts in one hit kills(yes there is such a thing) enter ufc, i dont think many of the folk there would stand a chance.

hahahaha. that's some funny crap. more of the kung fu chi, dim mak, death touch crap.

[Kingston]

i think this just comes back to the o'll sport vs self defence.

proud chinaman, you buy into the hype of those traditional martial arts a little to much. Those russian spys who kill people with one hit......use a bullet.

MMA is not the best for self defence. Being a good fighter in the ring does not mean that some street punk could take your life away with a pull of a trigger, a quck slash with a knife.

TMA's have potential, but i honestly think it would be close to impossible to find a place that would cover all the aspects that would make it worth going there over something else.

for the most part, it is true that some arts are 'to deadly' for the ring. Just for the fact that they dont teach for the ring, so dont give ring strategies. MMA guys have to keep a more open mind, and TMA guys have to start thinking more criticaly.

oh ya, and dont worry what other people think, in the end you 'know' what you 'know'.

[RobertG]

First off, lets disabuse you of a silly notion--unarmed martial arts never saved anyone's ass in war. That's a sweeping statement, and I'm sure some soldier here can come up with an exception. However, by and large, weapons save people's asses in war. Wars are fought by guys with weapons. Soldiers will use any weapon available before resorting to bare handed combat because their opponent likely has a weapon of some sort. I am very skeptical of anyone who claims a high level of development of unarmed combat arts until the last few centuries (there being exceptions, such as the Greeks and pancration, since they had developed the appropriate infrastructure for professional atheletes).

So, yes, there are plenty of arts more deadly thatn BJJ or Muay Thai. You ignore, of course, that these are highly derived arts. 500 years ago the practioners of the ancestral arts would have carried swords. They may have thrown an opportunistic kick, or done a takedown, but the bottom line is that they wanted to stick that blade in you. The fact is that the modern unarmed arts evolved under very unique conditions, and by and large when combat was not a life and death proposition anymore (despite the mythology of the "dangerous streets" to the contrary). People who live in dangerous areas learn to fight without structured martial arts. They know how to use weapons, they won't hesitate to use weapons, and "dirty" tactics are par for the course. The notion that you need to develop unarmed martial arts for self-defense is absurd. People living in poor and dangerous neighborhoods throughtout history generally don't have the time to train hours everyday learning things they learn the hard way on the streets. I'm pretty certain that if you take the average street hardened male who's grown up in a bad neighborhood, done some jail time and been in a gang can kick the crap out of most non-professional martial artists. Wing chun doesn't save your ass on the streets---being beaten into a gang does. And all that Wing Chun isn't going to do jack to save your ass from a prison rape.

Now as for the sport versus street argument--I think Matt Thorton has made one of the most intelligent arguments about this. To summarize, Matt basically says that if you teach eye gouges, head butts and elbows to a professional boxer, he's going to pick it up faster and actually be able to pull it off. A guy who does eye jabs in kata, but never actually spars against resisting opponents has very little chance to pull this off in reality. No, the ring is not the street. However, a seasoned mixed martial artist can more readily get into position to do all the nasty stuff--groin kicks, biting his opponent on the ground, gouging eyes from the mount, crushing the throat, etc. These guys are used to resisting opponents. The actual nasty stuff doesn't take skill--anyone can bite, anyone can claw and gouge. But it takes skill to keep your head and wits in a fight, it takes training to be able to take blows, and it takes sparring with live, resisting opponents to actually be able to use your nasty bag of tricks. And even without nasty tricks, the revelation of live sparring goes back at least to Kano, who realized the only effective techniques are the ones you can actually pull off against resisting opponents. Sure, classical jujitsu possessed supposedly deadly stuff. It doesn't work in reality. A simple hip throw does. And if you land the guy on his head on the concrete, well a seemingly undeadly technique lands the guy in the emergency room. Same with Muay Thai. A proper elbow to the head, while not exotic, is potentiall lethal. You don't need to dim mak the guy or something. Just land the tip of your elbow in his temple.

[sercuerdas]

from people i know who are in the military and documentaries i have seen the u.s. military train in boxing, muaythai, bjj, jkd, and fma. different branches train in different mixes of those arts. imo this show alot about the soilders mentality, it has to work, and IHAVE TO BE ABLE TO LEARN IT AND BE ABLE TO APPLY QUICKLY. those are two very important things. it doesn't mean the other arts are no good, just that many of them have too long of a learning curve.

[Mr. Heel Hook]

Originally posted by RobertG
You don't need to dim mak the guy or something.

"The **** is a Doo Mak?" -Jackson- From Blood Sport.

[Tom Yum]

I suppose each countries military trains in various martial arts. If I'm not mistaken the Chinese army trains in arts like San Shou and Chin Na, which can be applied during live sparring. The Korean special forces train in Tukong Musool, which was is shao lin based. I've heard that S. Korean H2H guys were brought into the Vietnam war for behind enemy lines operations? Can anyone confirm this? Naturally the Thai army trains in a combat version of muay thai, so I've heard.

Rob G is right about street toughness and gang fights. Some of these guys eventually find their way into MMA and are tough mo fos.

If you don't spar, you don't develop live distancing, timing and toughness. Ever see how a kata guy reacts to fight pressure? Its not like the movies.

Even tough wing tsun fighters like Boztepe spar on a regular basis, not to mention growing up in a poor Turkish neighboorhood in Germany - its kind of like East LA, except people get beat to death or stabbed since guns are illegal and more difficult to obtain. Not to mention that being Turkish in Germany during the 70's and 80's was probably like being black in America during the 50s.

[William]

This is an exerpt from a PTK manual by Mandala Tim Waid. Notice point 1, about warfare applies here:

"The distinguishing characteristic of Pekiti-Tirsia and of the Filipino martial arts is the principle that weaponry is instructed first and then progresses into the final stage to empty hands skills. The strategic reasoning behind this structure is that:

1. The nature of warfare is the utilization of weaponry - not empty hands.

2. Attribute Development - the use of weaponry and bladed weapons in particular,
develops and enhances combative attributes and application at a more intensive level and faster rate than empty hands training.

3. The Filipino methods of empty hand combat are derived directly from the application of weaponry verses having completely different styles of empty hands skills and weaponry technique. This principle of parallel methodology and transferable technology in its truest form can only be found within the Filipino martial arts. In the modern application these methods and skills transfer from bladed, impact and other edged weapons to empty hands combat and directly back to weapons including modern firearms."

The point was to get people trained for warfare as quickly as possible. Weapons were taught first and open hand applications were later derived directly from weapon technique. Why? Because warfare is the utilization of weaponry. Open hand is a last resort. It usually means your out of ammo, you lost your blade and the sh*t has hit the fan.

Muay Thai

Most people refer to MT as a sport. The ring aspect evolved around the 1920's or early 30's. There is what's reffered to as "old style", Muay Boran and Muay Kacheuk. There are many things within these older styles that are not allowed in ring MT. Quite nasty stuff that is very applicable in your self-defense/street orientation. So, for me, the arguement that "I wouldn't be able to do my technique in MMA" falls short. Do you think I would not do those things to you out side of the ring? Damn straight I would. I have to go with RG on that one.

These styles decend from the Thai weapons art of Krabi-Krabong. If you have trained MT and take up KK, you can feel where aspects of MT came from. Try putting on a pair of Mai Soks and fighting. MT stance (and how you hold thai pads) is derived directly from this structure. MT (believed by some) was developed to train KK movements without weapons.

To sum up my rambling here, FMA and KK are systems derived directly from warfare. MT decends directly and quite recently from KK and still retains it's extremely combative nature (even ring MT). Many other open hand systems were developed for sport or self defense...not war.

Same with Muay Thai. A proper elbow to the head, while not exotic, is potentiall lethal. You don't need to dim mak the guy

Now that's my style of Dim Mak!!!

William