Bouncer Study

phunnylaugh · 09-02-2003, 01:53 PM

Interesting article:
http://www.medserv.no/article.php?sid=547

I thought this quote was especially appropriate:

"Yet, a good professional bouncer prefers to verbally intimidate potentially violent drunks. "Bouncers can all fight," Salter noted, "But they rank each other by their talking ability. The lowest ranked fought the most. The highest ranked had the best social skills."

Nutz · 09-02-2003, 06:05 PM

Take it with a grain of salt. Until I seem some hard-and-fast & unbiasedly proven statistics backing up the stuff they discussed, as well as statistics backing up the statistics they were using, I'll go with what I know thank you very much. Around these parts (Cambridge, UK) the majority of the bouncers I've met don't really have any martial arts experience. Most are just big fat guys, or aspiring power-lifters or bodybuilders. In fact, from my experience of the bouncers I've met and known (spanning a multitude of pubs and clubs--he was only studying a handful in one club) only a small portion of them has any actual h2h training. Most say they just pick stuff up on the job.

Szczepankiewicz · 09-02-2003, 06:20 PM

Statistically speaking, however, statistics only 'prove' what you want them to prove.

How many statistics do you want to see?

cakegirl · 09-02-2003, 08:36 PM

The researcher is from Australia.

He must be right!

Cakegirl

JaredExtreme · 09-02-2003, 09:03 PM

This is a very general article that does in fact lack statistics. Also, it should be noted that this is a correlational study in a natural setting. As I'm sure you are all aware, it is extremely hard, if not impossible, to determine causation in settings like these due to the inability to control variables.

Overall though I think the message of the article is clear regarding bouncer behavior and establishment of dominance, and I don't find it the information too be very controversial.

(Psych major

)

Nutz · 09-03-2003, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Szczepankiewicz
Statistically speaking, however, statistics only 'prove' what you want them to prove.

How many statistics do you want to see?

There was supposed to be a hint of that in my post, but I guess it wasn't as apparent as I though it was. You're right though. Statistics are almost always driven by someone's own agenda, whether it be the researchers doing the study, or the folks footing the bill for the study. So, how many sociology courses have you taken?

Half-Asleep · 09-03-2003, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cakegirl
The researcher is from Australia.

He must be right!

Cakegirl

Exactly

phunnylaugh · 09-04-2003, 06:17 AM

Glad to start a debate that should remain at a socially acceptable level.

NWPTrainer · 09-04-2003, 05:19 PM

I've done bar work and event security all over this country. I've worked redneck joints in the South and hip-hop clubs and concerts on the West Coast.

The truth is, as was stated above.....most guys in this line of work are big fat a$$es that use the "put my belly in the way and walk forward" school of crowd control. There are many of us though that are not as large. I'm only 6'1", 200 pounds. I have a measly ten percent body fat.......I also have fifteen years of martial arts and combatives training. But.....what I have found is that, those of us who have to rely on something other than being a big guy, we like to talk it out with people. I'd much rather ASK an unruly patron to mleave than have to physically shove him out the door. Does that make me a puss? Maybe.....but it also means I make almost twice what the big guys that I work with are making....THe security companies and batrs do not want brawlers. They want guys and girls who are articulate and can talk a person down. Unfortuntall, there is such a stigma attached to the industry that it's thje ignorant fat shcmucks that are most often attracted to it....Or the guys that simply WANT to fight.

I deal with both on a daily basis. It is frustrating.......but I also get alojng much better with the management of my compnay because they realize that I will try and avoid getting them involved in a lawsuit....

RLTW

IPON · 09-04-2003, 06:27 PM

I agree with NUTS and NWPTRAINER. I am a bouncer in NYC and from the all the bouncer that I know very few have any formal martial art experience and less with any rankling. The y usually rely on there size to intimidate. At the club I work at (medium size 3 floors) I find that the majority of fights are caused by the bouncers and they can't fight. I have had few fights in relation and I think its becuase I have respect for people so yeah I try to be firm but respectful (not a puss realistic). I always tell the other bouncers if you can't respect the individual have respect for what they may know in terms of fighting. Some of the guys are bigger than me and I would say "if you did this to me I would...."

just my 2.5 cents

NWPTrainer · 09-04-2003, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by IPON
very few have any formal martial art experience and less with any rankling. The y usually rely on there size to intimidate. At the club I work at (medium size 3 floors) I find that the majority of fights are caused by the bouncers and they can't fight.

The size of most event and club security is one advantage they ahve. The bull in a china shop approach works wonders. The other advantage that they have is that very seldom will they be involved in a one-on-one confrontation. Generally there will be four, five, or even more security people piling onto a couple of transgressors. This is why when someone tells you that they are a bouncer in some nightclub, it does not automatically mean they area billy badass. They may still stomp a mudhole in you, but not because they necessarily know some fancy techniques. It may just be that theya re so big you'd have to shoot 'em to stop 'em...

RLTW

Nutz · 09-04-2003, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NWPTrainer
It may just be that theya re so big you'd have to shoot 'em to stop 'em...

RLTW

That line reminds me of something a cop once told me at a training seminar I was helping out with. When my instructor heard him, the next segment he trained them on was Dumog

Note: we threw in a little JJ just for added emphasis on how to deal with people on drugs and/or the crazy folk who don't feel pain (i.e. if the elbow is broken, regardless of wheher or not they feel the pain, the arm simply won't work the way it should thereby giving you the advantage).

NWPTrainer · 09-04-2003, 08:25 PM

Nutz,

I've done some DUMOG type training, and lots of judo/jj stuff...in fact my forthcoming book is based around using these skills combined witgh striking skills and stuf to control even larger attackers....
I'm also 6'1" 200lbs.....
Those combine to make it feasible to fight most people, even big ones....If I can't hit 'em or I can't hurt 'em by hitting 'em, those skills come in real handy....Nevertheless....I have worked with guys that were so thick that even a punch in the throat had a couple inches of muscle or fat to get through..The tendons and ligaments around their knees are so thick and tough from carrying 250+pounds, that a stomp their ain;t gonna do diddly either...

Much as we hate to admit it...There are guys out there big enough that the only way to beat 'em is to shoot 'em or to stick 'em....

I got the line from a my grandad and dad, both of whome are former Detroit cops...My granddad was a narc ion the 60s working the outlaw bikers.....he's 5'6" and has never weighed more than about 135 lbs, soaking wet.....My dad is 5'5" and weighs in at about 150-160...

BOth are hard as woodpecker lips, but both also know their limits...I try to know mine as well.....

RLTW

phunnylaugh · 09-05-2003, 03:02 PM

Quote:

I have worked with guys that were so thick that even a punch in the throat had a couple inches of muscle or fat to get through..The tendons and ligaments around their knees are so thick and tough from carrying 250+pounds, that a stomp their ain;t gonna do diddly either...

And the one striking point that is easily hurt ....

....the eyes.

NWPTrainer · 09-05-2003, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by phunnylaugh

And the one striking point that is easily hurt ....

....the eyes.

valid, to a degree.......But you have to keep in mind that it is a natural human insticint to protect your eyes....You might be fast enough to jab a thumb in his eye, but he might just be faster as well......And if you get close enough to jab a finger in his eye and miss....

Tell me how ya like pissin' through a tube...

Big guys aren't invincible...but sometimes they are close enough to it...

RLTW

09-02-2003, 01:53 PM	#1 (permalink)
phunnylaugh Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 9	Bouncer Study Interesting article: http://www.medserv.no/article.php?sid=547 I thought this quote was especially appropriate: "Yet, a good professional bouncer prefers to verbally intimidate potentially violent drunks. "Bouncers can all fight," Salter noted, "But they rank each other by their talking ability. The lowest ranked fought the most. The highest ranked had the best social skills." __________________ "Consider the subtle difference between "having no form" and having "no form"; the first is ignorance, the second is transcendence" - Bruce Lee Web - http://www.nskarate.tk

09-02-2003, 06:05 PM	#2 (permalink)
Nutz Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Maryland Posts: 217	Take it with a grain of salt. Until I seem some hard-and-fast & unbiasedly proven statistics backing up the stuff they discussed, as well as statistics backing up the statistics they were using, I'll go with what I know thank you very much. Around these parts (Cambridge, UK) the majority of the bouncers I've met don't really have any martial arts experience. Most are just big fat guys, or aspiring power-lifters or bodybuilders. In fact, from my experience of the bouncers I've met and known (spanning a multitude of pubs and clubs--he was only studying a handful in one club) only a small portion of them has any actual h2h training. Most say they just pick stuff up on the job. Last edited by Nutz; 09-03-2003 at 04:14 AM.

09-02-2003, 08:36 PM	#4 (permalink)
cakegirl Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: under a pebble Posts: 828	The researcher is from Australia. He must be right! Cakegirl __________________

09-02-2003, 09:03 PM	#5 (permalink)
JaredExtreme Registered User Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 1,117	This is a very general article that does in fact lack statistics. Also, it should be noted that this is a correlational study in a natural setting. As I'm sure you are all aware, it is extremely hard, if not impossible, to determine causation in settings like these due to the inability to control variables. Overall though I think the message of the article is clear regarding bouncer behavior and establishment of dominance, and I don't find it the information too be very controversial. (Psych major ) __________________ "I don't fight in the street, there's no mats out there." - JaredExtreme

09-04-2003, 06:17 AM	#8 (permalink)
phunnylaugh Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 9	Glad to start a debate that should remain at a socially acceptable level. __________________ "Consider the subtle difference between "having no form" and having "no form"; the first is ignorance, the second is transcendence" - Bruce Lee Web - http://www.nskarate.tk

09-02-2003, 06:20 PM	#3 (permalink)
Szczepankiewicz Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Meridian, ID, USA Posts: 4,109	Statistically speaking, however, statistics only 'prove' what you want them to prove. How many statistics do you want to see?

09-04-2003, 05:19 PM	#9 (permalink)
NWPTrainer Registered User Join Date: May 2003 Location: in a hole..... Posts: 56	I've done bar work and event security all over this country. I've worked redneck joints in the South and hip-hop clubs and concerts on the West Coast. The truth is, as was stated above.....most guys in this line of work are big fat a$$es that use the "put my belly in the way and walk forward" school of crowd control. There are many of us though that are not as large. I'm only 6'1", 200 pounds. I have a measly ten percent body fat.......I also have fifteen years of martial arts and combatives training. But.....what I have found is that, those of us who have to rely on something other than being a big guy, we like to talk it out with people. I'd much rather ASK an unruly patron to mleave than have to physically shove him out the door. Does that make me a puss? Maybe.....but it also means I make almost twice what the big guys that I work with are making....THe security companies and batrs do not want brawlers. They want guys and girls who are articulate and can talk a person down. Unfortuntall, there is such a stigma attached to the industry that it's thje ignorant fat shcmucks that are most often attracted to it....Or the guys that simply WANT to fight. I deal with both on a daily basis. It is frustrating.......but I also get alojng much better with the management of my compnay because they realize that I will try and avoid getting them involved in a lawsuit.... RLTW __________________ "Ask not what your country can do for you. Rather, ask what you can do for your country."

09-04-2003, 06:27 PM	#10 (permalink)
IPON Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NYC Posts: 1,558	I agree with NUTS and NWPTRAINER. I am a bouncer in NYC and from the all the bouncer that I know very few have any formal martial art experience and less with any rankling. The y usually rely on there size to intimidate. At the club I work at (medium size 3 floors) I find that the majority of fights are caused by the bouncers and they can't fight. I have had few fights in relation and I think its becuase I have respect for people so yeah I try to be firm but respectful (not a puss realistic). I always tell the other bouncers if you can't respect the individual have respect for what they may know in terms of fighting. Some of the guys are bigger than me and I would say "if you did this to me I would...." just my 2.5 cents __________________ A person who is said to be proficient in the arts is like a fool. Because of his foolishness in concerning himself with just one thing, he thinks of nothing else and thus becomes proficient. - Hagarkure

09-04-2003, 08:25 PM	#13 (permalink)
NWPTrainer Registered User Join Date: May 2003 Location: in a hole..... Posts: 56	Nutz, I've done some DUMOG type training, and lots of judo/jj stuff...in fact my forthcoming book is based around using these skills combined witgh striking skills and stuf to control even larger attackers.... I'm also 6'1" 200lbs..... Those combine to make it feasible to fight most people, even big ones....If I can't hit 'em or I can't hurt 'em by hitting 'em, those skills come in real handy....Nevertheless....I have worked with guys that were so thick that even a punch in the throat had a couple inches of muscle or fat to get through..The tendons and ligaments around their knees are so thick and tough from carrying 250+pounds, that a stomp their ain;t gonna do diddly either... Much as we hate to admit it...There are guys out there big enough that the only way to beat 'em is to shoot 'em or to stick 'em.... I got the line from a my grandad and dad, both of whome are former Detroit cops...My granddad was a narc ion the 60s working the outlaw bikers.....he's 5'6" and has never weighed more than about 135 lbs, soaking wet.....My dad is 5'5" and weighs in at about 150-160... BOth are hard as woodpecker lips, but both also know their limits...I try to know mine as well..... RLTW __________________ "Ask not what your country can do for you. Rather, ask what you can do for your country."

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