TMAs: Silat

[Tom Yum]

The word Pentjak means: the body movements used in the training method and the word Silat means: the application of those movements or the actual 'fight'. Each style of Pentjak Silat has its own formal curriculum, history and traditions, some shrouded in secrecy and some open to the public.

Many systems of Pentjak Silat offer amazingly concise physical techniques and philosophy that inter-relate , function, and integrate as a whole. Every move, physical or mental is consistent with a certain belief system and fighting rationale, making it a devastating self-defense system.

There is no overall standard for Pentjak Silat. Each style has its own particular movement patterns, specially designed techniques and tactical rationale. However, although all styles use hand and foot motions, the percentage of use of either one depends on the style and the tactics being used. A quite remarkable tactic is the one used by the Harimau style from Sumatra. In this method, the practitioner's movement pattern resembles the antics of a tiger (the name of Harimau), with heavy emphasis on staying close to the ground using crouching, lying, sitting and semi-squat positions. The leg strength and flexibility require is impressive and the Harimau stylist can use his hands like extra feet or his feet like extra hands. He can start the fight from the ground position or will invite his opponent into a trap then take him to the ground. Other types of Sumatran Silat are Menangkabau, Podang, Sterlak, Lintau and Kumango. On the other hand, many Javanese styles use a percentage weighting that is more balanced between hand and legwork. Many Javanese styles require the practitioner to move in close against the enemy in an upright position, then use various hand and foot moves to express the techniques.

Styles such as Tjimande, Serak, Tjikalong and Tjigrik all demonstrate this fact.

[Tom Yum]

My impression of Silat comes from a practitioner of a style called Pukulan Tjimande which I was told was part of the Silat family, but had a heavier influences from southern Chinese styles.

Anyhow, pukulan emphasized speed, footwork, reflexes and infighting with circular techniques. The style was about 75% hands, 25% kicks. The guy who did pukulan would purposely leave openings for you to attack and build his counter off of that or slip to get inside.

From what I remember, he would roll flurries of back fists, knife hand strikes and palsm which looked insignficant but shifted his weight during each roll so that the series of strikes would come in from a downward angle on your exposed side or upward from an opening. His stances dictated where his body weight power was going and he would slip or parry and flurry with rolling strikes up your arm, tag your neck and finish with your nose/eyes.

You don't see this concept in linear arts like karate, taekwondo hapkido.

The grappling techniques were nothing different than your standard traditional jujitsu.

Anyone have similar experiences with silat or related styles?

[Toudiyama[NL]]

the flurry of movement is suppose to hide the attacks, it fooled most of my students, but when I sparred the same guy, I immitated the movements and then attacked with short but fast reverse punches which scored/hit every time

We also had guys trying a sapu which is a sweep performed like a spinning backkick on the floor but that's a foolish thing ro do on a mat that wasn't even slippery if wet
They barely moved my feet

Somehow the Manyang (bee?) style didn't teaach their students that this technique was meant for the slippery riverbanks

Pentjak Silat styles can vary a lot just because of geographical location in the mountainy area the legs would me used more and the styles are more in a standing position instead of the somewhat crawling position
Rhe mountains aren't slippery and make that people have stronger leg muscles

It is a beautyfull art best suited for flexible people when it comes to the low styles

Only thing I have against it is the fact that they have the same thoughts as WC people :"My arts is the best SD art"
Not really good SD but the best

Because the Netherlands are the former owner of Indonesia, my country has a lot of Pentjak Silat styles, even has produced a few styles that are recognised in Indonesia

[Harimau]

Hi Tom Yum,

I'm a newbie to this forum. As you can probably guess from my user name, I am a pesilat. Looks like you have been reading the late great Donn Draeger's book "The Weapons and Fighting Arts of Indonesia". Whilst my seniors tell me that there are various inaccuracies in the book, I guess todate, no-one else has taken the trouble to produce such a comprehensive work. Kudos to Mr Draeger for that.

IMHO, it's a bit difficult to generalize about silat. The term encompasses such a wide range of arts and philosophies, it's like saying "kung fu" and then trying to equate shuai chiao with WC or bagua zhang. People who have had bad experiences in one style may find other styles much more to their liking. Something to bear in mind, however, is that the empty-hand component of many styles is inextricably linked to use of the short blade eg. kris, kerambit, pisau belati. When you see the bladed component, suddenly things make more sense. In some styles for example, the grappling techniques are limited to those which can easily be dissolved, and therefore might be useful in a multiple opponent scenario with weapons (not a good situation by any means!). Some of these "tie-ups" I have not seen in any other style and appear to be unique.

The pukulan style you describe sounds pretty much like the buah pukul styles in Malaysia - upright, aggressive, short-range and heavily Chinese-based/influenced (no integrated knife-work here!). There is a style in Malaysia called Lian Padukan which is based on Buah Pukulan Mersing. From what I've seen LP uses a lot of arm destruction, chain striking and low-line kicks. As opposed to this, you have Silat Gayong, which has wide deep stances, and hard, linear techniques similar to karate. Many of the silat olahraga (sports silat) people in Malaysia come from Gayong. Yet other styles are softer, more circular, with much more movement in the vertical plane.

Toudiyama, I agree with you that a few of the silat schools seem to have an incredible arrogance - and I don't just mean "We are the best", but "We are utterly invincible but our art is too deadly to show". I guess a lot of this stems from the mystical side of these arts, where "graduates" are told that if they recite this and this verse they will be invulnerable etc., and everybody else's style is crap. I must say however that in my (limited) experience this is not the norm, particularly amongst teachers who have studied several styles. My guru is always careful to say that there is no best art - he doesn't agree with what is taught in McDojos for example, but he will never claim that his art is the best. In fact, he always encourages us to keep an open mind.

Regarding the back-spinning sweep ("sapu" just means sweep), I agree that that doesn't sound too practical (even on a slippery riverbank). The sapus we use are very simple hooking/reaping motions of the leg, done close-in, usually shin against calf, or shin against shin, which basically rip the opponent's supporting leg from under him, when he is already in an exposed position and/or has been "softened up". I can definitely vouch for the fact that they work against resisting opponents (my classmates and I have the bruises to prove it ).

Harimau

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Using the shin in a sapu sound much better but I must say that even my dad who is an experienced Judoteacher, had problems sweeping me of my feet
Probably because I have something of size 12-13 shoesize

Don't understand why someone uses a sapu when he trains with us Wado karateka
First time the guy did it, my foot moved 2 inches, and his actions showed he ws fighting on, so my teacher sez :"Carry on Dan" next time foot moves 1 inch and I try a drop/heelkick to the body, I was a moment too late, 3rd time no movement of the foot and my kick was righht on the spot, without touching him, after that he stopped strait away

Somehow I had the assumption that people were told before eveery training that their style was supirior to all, seems I wasn't far off
I understand this isn't the rule but I can only speak about people in my area which is a few miles north of Amsterdam called Zaandstad or the Zaanstreek, the only PS that we have here is Manyang

[nogard1980]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Toudiyama[NL]
[B]


Only thing I have against it is the fact that they have the same thoughts as WC people :"My arts is the best SD art"
Not really good SD but the best



You mean " as some WC people". I am training in WC and by no means believe my studied art is the best. Infact I hope to do some cross training in other arts in the future ( thia boxing, savate, kali, jj,) so please don't pigion hole ALL WC practioniers.

[Harimau]

"Probably because I have something of size 12-13 shoesize "

LOL. I probably wouldn't try sweeping you either.

"Don't understand why someone uses a sapu when he trains with us Wado karateka"

I take it you are referring to the back-spinning sapu you described, and not a simple sapu or sweep which resembles ko-soto-gari or de-ashi-barai (isn't de-ashi-barai used with effect in wado-ryu sparring?)

[Toudiyama[NL]]

I think my prejudice is caused by the fact that most WC/WT/VC/VT people that get media attention seem to hold these opinions

a WC p with common sense Like you understands that most if not all MA have their shortcommings, what's perfect for one kind of situation will be useless in another

[gracilva]

dont know much about pentjak silat,
but i do know my bjj instructor won gold in the world silat championships in 82, the first and at that time, the only non indonesian to accomplish that.
he is also a black belt in shootfighting
and a black belt under rigan machado in bjj
so to say i am hyped about being his student is a huge understatment

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Originally posted by Harimau
"Probably because I have something of size 12-13 shoesize "

LOL. I probably wouldn't try sweeping you either.

"Don't understand why someone uses a sapu when he trains with us Wado karateka"

I take it you are referring to the back-spinning sapu you described, and not a simple sapu or sweep which resembles ko-soto-gari or de-ashi-barai (isn't de-ashi-barai used with effect in wado-ryu sparring?)

Wel i meant that if you go and attend a training in Karate, it is strange to start using other techniques
I never did, if I train with a school I try to do the same as the other students ( when in Rome...)
Going to the ground and trying to fight on isn't part of that

We had the same kind of thing with 2 kung fu guys, they started doing jump spinning backkicks but jumped strait up so didn't come close, then I did it but I throw my backleg foreward and then make a jump spinning backkick, I move foreware upto 2 m, , and they really had to move backwards, also stopped strait away

These people came to us not because they were thinking we were so good or just interested, no they wanted to prove how good they and the style/art they did were
I wasalways able to prove them wrong without having to hurt them