Why Judo is superior to juijitsu brazilian or otherwise

[shasan]

kevin green,

Nobody is claiming jiu-jitsu as their own. Judo, as you know (like many japanese martial arts) stemmed from classical/traditional jiu-jitsu.

- Helio Gracie's brother taught traditional jiu-jitsu in his school in Brazil
- Helio Gracie went to every class but didn't take part in the class, he just watched.
- Helio was (still is) a relatively frail man, wasn't very strong at all.
- Although he didn't take part, he soaked up every traditional jiu-jitsu technique his brother taught and memorized everything.
- One day his brother was late for class, so he took the liberty of teaching the students.
- He began to adapt the jiu-jitsu techniques (which traditionally required a lot of power/strength) to his frail body and used leverage and balance much more.
- When his brother came to class, the students asked whether helio could continue teaching them. And Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was born.

Gracie Jiu-Jitsu = Jiu-Jitsu minus emphasis on power/strength

Hope that clears something up.

As for that book, you may have had it for 30 years, but I'd bet the principles in it have been around for about half a millennium.

Cheers.
shasan.

[jules]

I'm guessing you're talking about Judo and BJJ in that order. When was BJJ proven to be a self defense martial art? And by whom?

Well one of the best "evidence" that supports BJJ is that the military and police in brazil use it. Another evidence is the fact that BJJ guys do extremely well in MMA tournaments.

[shasan]

I don't know about that. I don't think military use BJJ extensively in H2H. Perhaps to learn about the importance of position.

I'm sure there are tons of threads about this though.

[Mr. Heel Hook]

Originally posted by Szczepankiewicz
Sweep,

the only point is that KG is a troll in need of banning by the mods.

Spanky

You are a heartless man... Makes me sad...

[Mr. Heel Hook]

Originally posted by jules


Well one of the best "evidence" that supports BJJ is that the military and police in brazil use it. Another evidence is the fact that BJJ guys do extremely well in MMA tournaments.

Pssst... don't forget America's armed forces use it as well. So yeah, Shasan it is used.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Well one of the best "evidence" that supports BJJ is that the military and police in brazil use it. Another evidence is the fact that BJJ guys do extremely well in MMA tournaments.

MMA tournaments have nothing to do with Self Defense. Ok, maybe a little, but they are not in the same ballpark. Same city maybe, but definitely different ballparks. Because something 'works' in the ring doesn't necessarily mean it will 'work' everywhere else.

Is your evidence concerning BJJ in the military and police in Brazil documented anywhere? It's always good to be able to point to documented specifics.

As I recall Police and Military units aren't too heavy into the whole 'self defense' market to begin with.

Police like to gang tackle and arrest. Military is interested in the mass destruction of enemy forces. Again, perhaps the same state, but not the same ballpark.

[shasan]

I agree with spank. They may learn the concepts and techniques, but I doubt that a policeman would be in the guard at any point during an arrest. Although submissions may play a bigger role.

Same for a military guy.. he's got his rifle, his sidearm, his knife. He's looking for the quick kill.

Anyway, like I said there's plenty of threads about this, but I just couldn't resist replying

[kevin green]

.''

[RobertG]

Kevin police around the world and throughout history have been cruel. This is not limited to Japanese police by any means. Look into the history of the LAPD if you want to see over zealous policing. And the police in many nations employ torture on a regular basis. The Japanese are actually pretty civilized. What you described are Japanese cops using a little stick to push on pressure points. That's torture? Whatever....pretty ineffective actually if you ask me. The gang tackle and batton beat down is much more effective.

[shasan]

and puleeeeeeez quit shouting.

[kevin green]

IT IS REFRESHING TO HEAR THAT THERE IS N0 BOWING IN MIXED MARTIAL ARTS OR BRAZILIAN JUIJITSU. MY POINT IS THAT THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN. OLD SAYING THAT IN THIS CASE MEANS WE HAVE DIFFERENT NAMES FOR THE SAME THING EXAMPLE A WELL THROWN PUNCH IS THROWN THE SAME WAY WHETHER YOU CALL IT BOXING KARATE JEET CAN DO KUNG FU MUAY THAI OR WHOUPPING SOMEONES DAMN ASS.ITS JUST HOW THE HUMAN BODY WORKS.I DON'T KNOW IF THERE IS SOME MOVE OR COMBINATION OF MOVES THAT HASN'T BEEN SEEN OR THOUGHT UP SOMETIME SOMEWHERE. BUT THERE ARE INNOVATIONS IN MODERN TRAINING METHODS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF SUCH THINGS AS VIDEO TAPE, COMPUTERS MODERN CHEMISTRY ETC.

MY OPINION IS THAT THESE GUYS ARE TRYING TO BE INNOVATIVE AND TRIED TO INVENT A SYSTEM OR SPORT BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN DRIVEN AWAY FROM JUDO BECAUSE OF THE MOONIE AND CULT DRIVEN POITICAL SITUATION THAT USES BOWING AND CLASSICAL TEACHING METHODS TO KEEP THEIR GRIP ON THE POWER STRUCTURE IN JUDO.

[NWPTrainer]

Okay. I am going to comment on this, but will try to be far less of a horse's fourth point of contact.

I do believe Judo is, in fact a very effective fighting art, rather than just a sport. Jigoro Kano originally taught Ju-jitsu. The modifications he made to randori were simply to make it safe to practice the techniques under a replicated combat condition. Same as the way the Gracie's do.
The difference between the two is the emphasis on throws and takedowns in judo, and on groubndfighting and wrestling in BJJ.
I donpt think either is superior. I trained in BJJ for a brief time, and enjoyed it. I gained a great deal from the expereince. I've also trained in Judo. Again, great expereiences. THe difference is that in judo we learn to fight in the standing position, rahter than automatically shooting and taking the guy down.

If I can use an osoto-gari, or an o-goshi, or a seoi-nage, and send the BG crashing into the ground, with me staying on my feet....Tht is the goal in SD. I can then run like Hades is chasing me, or I can deal with multiple assailants. If on the other hand, my throw is bungled, and I go down with him, I am gonna know some groundfighting/wrestling skills.

THe advantage of BJJ is that the focus is on dominant body position. Once you get the DBP, if you can maintain it...you;re golden..unless there is more than one bad guy of course.

If you look at nthe OLD judo textboks....by Kano and others, bothe Japanese and wsterners, you will see that they practiced strikes as well, but focused on self-defense strikes rather than sporting strikes.......
THats the esseonce of combat judo...

RLTW

[Mr. Heel Hook]

Yeash, I think Kevin is a bit wired. Oh, and, uh... Spanky you can email the graccie academy for the rock-hard proof of Special Forces units being trained in GJJ. And no, I don't mean singular people (as in some guy coming in off the street who happens to be a Ranger or SEAL or the such) but as in units.

[NWPTrainer]

Originally posted by Mr. Heel Hook
Yeash, I think Kevin is a bit wired. Oh, and, uh... Spanky you can email the graccie academy for the rock-hard proof of Special Forces units being trained in GJJ. And no, I don't mean singular people (as in some guy coming in off the street who happens to be a Ranger or SEAL or the such) but as in units.

The 75th Ranger Regiment developed a Ju-Jitsu training program in alliance with Rorion and Royce. They still do it occasionally,ut it is not a focal point of their training by any stretch of the imagination.

THe Regiment is used as a testbed for anything the regular army gets. BJJ is THE basis for all combatives/SD training in the Army right now though.......

RLTW

[Sean Dempsey]

Two things:

First, I am a member of a Pedro Sauer team in the Southwest USA, and my instructor trained directly under Pedro. (if you don't know, Pedro is a Rickson Gracie 5th degree blackbelt, and grew up with Rickson in Brazil). I know that Pedro has taught many different branches of the military various things. Formally, as in the military asked him to teach.

Second, I believe that the popularity and effectiveness of GJJ is not what the Gracies invented, but rather the style, method, and effectiveness of their teachig that has carved their name into JJ history.

As a party-line Gracie student, I can say that while they certainly did not invent jiu jitsu, they have developed teaching methods that have, obviously, made their name a *world wide* name in grappling.

They aren't gods or the inventors of all JJ, but they sure did something right, and continue to do so.