MA Training for Cdn Law Enforcement

[NWPTrainer]

Well, this will step on some toes...

Kensh0.....William.....

Having spent some significant time training in JKD Concepts and other FMA based arts under one of Inosantos students, I think they are highly over-rated for LEO self-defense....Yes, the weapons training is somewhat a valid concern, except....

Far too much of it is based on the premise of a duelling situation...ie, both people have a knife or a baton, etc.....If you are a cop, the only time you better use a knife as a weapon is as a last-ditch, "Oh Shiite!" tool to escape. THis would be in a ground fighting situation or you are getting choked out or something....if you can access a knife, you can access your sidearm in most circumstances.....

The use of the baton is a valid LE issue, but most of what is taught for solo baston in FMA is way to complex for LEO to worry about....Smack the suspect in the leg or the elbow to gain complince......If it is a self-defense isue that requires lethal force, smack him in the head.....

Having taken LE Defensive Tactics courses on a number of occasions, I do not believe that they offer much value to an officer...HOWEVER...inner-departmental training IS the best place to learn to use ANY weapon as a LEO because of one simle fact...the departmental regulations determine how you can use those weapons. It doesn't make any sense at all to go out and learn 1001 lethal stick disarms and strikes if department policy is gonna say you can only use the outer thigh strike and the solar plexus jab...

Now....that having been said...If you jsut decide you want to learn FMA for the Hell of it, or because it looks like a an interesting martial art....by all means, do so....I value some of the training in recieved there...A lot of it was silly B.S. but there was a lot of good stuff too....

RLTW

[Kingston]

hmm. I dont think judo/boxing/BJJ or pretty much any MMA will get you beyond the most basic needs for the job.

Being bruce lee, or Tito ortiz wont make you a good RCMP officer. Though i beleave MA's do help to some degree, i dont think taking MA's expecialy ones with a sport style would help you in the long run.

perhaps some kind of tactical gun course, leadership course, defencive driving road course if you can find it. Take criminology or what not in university (or something else that will help you in law enforcement)

do some research about the job, perhaps try to talk to someone who already is an RCMP officer. See what skills you need to make you more competitive.

being i student, monies usualy tight. Taking a judo, or hapkido class wont be worth the money.

On the other hand i think programs such as Senshido, or other top RBSD places would be well worth your money (where's Ryan when you need him). For the reason they put more emphasis on before fight strategies, non-sport in fight strategies, and all other things that most TMA or MMA teachers dont even touch on.

Problem is i dont know if there are any places in your area.

Anyway good luck. Getting into the emergancy responce team will be a long road.

[ryanhall]

where's Ryan when you need him

Speak of the devil.

What's up, Kingston? How's Systema stuff going, dude?

Kensh0,
You would likely be best served by looking into something like Senshido, as Kingston suggested. I have been very satisfied in my dealings with the Senshido people.

www.senshido.com

Not quite as good in my estimation, but fine if you can stomach the delivery (I've never trained with him):

www.tonyblauer.com

He has a number of representatives, and you might be able to find one easier than one of Rich Dimitri's.

I'm not sure where you live, but if it's not within shooting distance of Montreal, then they have affiliates.

They're by no means the end all and be all (nothing and nobody is), but they are very solid. You would also be well-served by doing some hard (very alive) training in just about anything (Boxing, Judo, etc.), provided that you keep a realistic perspective about what you are learning and what you are not learnng, as well as the MANY differences between combat sport training and 'street' self-defense. I would stay away from Hapkdio, Aikido, whatever, as they tend to emphasize locking and generally use pretty unrealistic training (though some people will argue for their effectiveness if you find a good place--well, not Aikido, but hey ).

Important for you to remember is this: any empty hand skills that you possess are just used to bridge the gap for you to get your hands on a weapon NOW. It would pay to be able to take it to the next level hand to hand wise, but you can't be hurting people left and right if you want to retain your badge.

WHY LOCKING CAN WORK FOR COPS: most people don't want to take a swing at you, as they want to chill while not adding to their sentence. Keep in mind how easy it is to stop a standing lock. Rely on strikes if you are justified, as being fancy for the sake of being fancy is a good way to get hurt. Can they work? Yes. Are they high percentage techniques against someone resisting even half way? No, no, no.

Make sure that you have VERY good weapon retention skills, awareness, and be able to fight on your feet (that means being able to defend takedowns/tackles). Restraining someone is well and good, but make sure that you are the one with the weapon when the real shit goes down.

I'm probably not telling you anything you don't already know, but it can help to re-emphasize the importance of certain things. Hope that helped.

[Strider]

why don't you just go with all of them. If the time is willing? It never hurts to expand your horizon of MA. Jui jitsu, TKD, BJJ, and MT have all their benefits and downfalls in all kinds of scenarios. Being able to adapt to a situation by using a certain technique taken from one of those fighting style would be effective. To your personal life and occupation.





LIVE LONG AND PROSPER

[Thai Bri]

Im a police officer in Britain. Training in Muay Thai, Judo or BJJ will make you strong and fit. It will also equip you with some techniques that could be of use. But it will also equip you with a majority of superfluous techniques that would be a waste of time for your role.

I havent trained Senshido, and am only beginnig to learn more about it. But I know that it has an emphasis on pre confrontation issues (which is totally missed out of the big three mentioned above) and people I respect say that it is very effective physically.

Put it this way. If I lived in Canada I would be training Senshido.

[Kensh0]

Unfortunately the Senshido school is about 8 hours away from where I live but its methods are very interesting. What do you guys think about learning it from video tapes, this package looks pretty good.

The Deluxe Tactical Urban Combat Box Set Special Edition:
TAPE # 1 - Senshido Fundamentals of Personal Protection
TAPES # 2 & # 3 - Defense Against Most Common Attacks.
TAPE # 4 - Defense Against Common Weapon Attacks
Tape # 12 - Senshido's Combative Strength Training 1
TAPE # 14 - Tool & Target Development
TAPE # 18 - Functional Combative Drill Training
BOOK "In Total Defense of the Self"
1 Senshido Hand-to-Hand Combat T-shirt
Regular $380 - SPECIAL $280

Perhaps a culmination of training Senshido through the tapes and taking up an actual MA would be a viable solution.

Kingston: Ya getting in ERT is a tough process, you have to be a 1st class constable for 3 years before you can qualify. Its definately a long term goal.

Well I'm off to the local rcmp detachment to get some more info. Much thanks for your help guys.

[Szczepankiewicz]

If you do not have an existing foundation in an MA you are asking for trouble trying to learn technique from tapes and out of books. It is difficult for experienced people to grasp the true nature of this type of material. If you have no background it will be that much more difficult.

However, it has been my experience that if you order any product from Rich Dimitri*, Alain Burrese, Gene Simco, Marc MacYoung, Dogs of War, Phil Elmore or Kip Brockett the author of said product will stand behind what they sell %100. This is essential if you buy something with tactical application and need to clarify what you read.

This is my opinion, and these are folks I have dealt with (some on a regular basis) so take it for what it's worth.

* I have yet to order a Senshido product, but trusted friends speak highly of the Shredder (TM)

Spanky

[William]

Kensh0,

What should be readily apparent by now is that everyone has their own idea as to what's more effective from a LEO stand point. For the most part, there are some good points being made. The bottom line is that in the end, You'll need to decide for yourself. I'm also an MT/KK person but feel (as Bi Thai said) that you will find much of it unusable from a "use of force" stand point. As I stated earlier, there will be portions of FMA that will be unusable as well. But, the point was to develop weapon and open hand skills that can be used interchangeably, that you can "flow" between with ease, and that you will only find in FMA. You will need to be aware of the use of force rules of your department and adjust accordingly. But, with that being said, you want to have the skills to go beyond that if the need arises (if you firearm is not accessible). I stand by what I said originally.

As far as JKDC/Kali crowd, you will find large variations (as NWPtrainer illustrates) in their FMA skills from person to person. Many concentrate on the JKDC and do the "Kali" as a side line. In these cases the training is somewhat one dimensional. I've seen some good skills and some very un-realistic training coming from these folks. I'm not familiar with the people listed for that area. I did note that they all seemed to have trained with the same person who lists Vunak lineage. Generally good JKDC, Kali can vary widely. If that is all that's available, give it a try. The reason I mentioned Pekiti-Tirsia is that standards are high, it has a large LEO following, and the systems techniques are effective and no nonsense. And the key, which you don't find developed to this degree in other arts, is the emphasis on footwork. Footwork is the key to all fighting strategies. Footwork provides protection, offensive and counter-offensive maneuvering and quartering. (I almost went off on that Footwork tangent Spanky). Even if the guys in your area good, I'd recommend shooting over to Toronto to get some Pekiti training with Guro jun de leonon on an occasional basis.

As far as Arnis De Mano. It's become a somewhat of a generic term for some FMA systems. Meaning, if you look at two systems who use the term Arnis De Mano, they can vary greatly in content and emphasis. Just look for a heavy emphasis on footwork and striking mechanics (weapon and OH), teaching based on principles and strategies, not technique accumulation. Sparring and training against fully resisting opponents. Beyond that, are you comfortable with it, do you mesh with the people, and do you think it will benefit you in your chosen profession.


Best of luck in what ever you decide.

William



Spanky, you owe me a fight to the death first!!! Don't think I haven't forgotten you veiled challange. I'm still waitng for my poem.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Spanky, you owe me a fight to the death first!!!

Funny you should mention that. The word, in French, for 'little death' is noneother than 'orgasm'. At least according to my Senior English instructor from High School.

Roses are Red
Violets are Blue
**** with the Spankmeister
You'll end up as Goo

Bada Boom
Bada Bing

[Kensh0]

Well guys after returning from the local depot I have learned that in there DT training they focus on joint locks, pressure points, takedowns ala Aikido and Jiu-Jitsu-- grappling-judo and most likely bjj, and western boxing and kick boxing.


I believe perhaps training in Jiu-Jitsu (since it is the basis for aikido and judo, and also includes striking with hands and legs) judo (greater focus on takedowns and grappling) and that 8 week intro to Muay Thai later on, would be effective in making me well rounded in self defense, as well giving me a distinct advantage over other cadets in this area. This of course is supplmented with working out, school, volunteer work, and shooting practice (pistol, rifle, shotgun). Good thing I have a few years ahead of me to work on all this stuff lol

[Rashid]

I have many of the Senshido tapes and Dimitri's stuff will definitely help you regardless of what style you practice. His method is more conceptual than technical and his take on the prior aspects of fighting is excellent. You can't go wrong with the tapes especially if you'll be training in a more sporting type of combatives such as JJ or MT. Check them out if you have the chance you simply cannot go wrong with any of the Senshido materials.

Rashid