Big Guy Against Small Guy

[Great Sage]

It's been billed that BJJ allows a smaller person to defeat a larger opponent. This is true if the larger person has no idea about grappling. However, if both combatants are skilled in BJJ, the more experienced will most likely win. If they're both equal in skill, I would say the larger person has the advantage.

Therefore, the initial statement regarding size applies to any effective martial art and not just BJJ. A little guy that is skilled in MT will very likely mess up a larger opponent with no training.

BJJ IS an effective strategy. But I thing whoever made the initial statement was promoting the art for financial reasons. And "yes" there are certain truths to the claim: a BJJ guy may have a chance against an amateur boxer, but that's trivial... We may never know.

[hashpuppet]

Whats an amateur boxer gonna do once you take him to the ground........

[Thai Bri]

Size is just one attribute. There are many others.

I am reasonably skilled in ground grappling (not strictly BJJ) and weigh 220 lbs. My instructor (as was) weighs 170 lbs. Guess what. He rolled me up like an old blanket every single time.

Why? Because there are other attributes too. And he had them in bucket loads as regards ground grappling.

[Mr. Heel Hook]

.........

[number18]

Initially I wanted to say something derogatory and very unpositive, but I'll just sum it up by saying no duh. If there are two BJJ guys, both equally skilled, and one is bigger...he is obviously going to have an advantage. I mean, if there's two champ boxers going at it, won't the one with the longer reach get more punches in?

Anyway, I think part of that bill that the smaller guy can defeat a big guy is because Helio Gracie is a smaalllll guy and he adapted the Jiu Jitsu he was learning to fit himself. So he had to really get the techniques good. Crisp. Solid. And so you can be a smaller guy with a shorter reach, shorter legs, etc and still do alright against a bigger guy...cause Helio Gracie made things tight like that. (Word is bond.) But obbbbbviously, if there are two equally skilled BJJ dudes going at it and the one dude is bigger, he has a weight advantage going on. And obviously, a small guy that knows Muay Thai is going to mess up a bigger dude that has no clue. I dunno. I think this is all really self-evident.

Ah well.

[Sean Dempsey]

If they're both equal in skill, I would say the larger person has the advantage.

This is untrue.

As a BJJ practicioner and party-line Gracie student, Helio Gracie would laugh at that above statement.

"Size" doesn't make or break 2 BJJ people witn equal skill. "Strength" doesn't either. Why? Because neither of those are things you need for effective BJJ. They are way down the list. And people who have extensive BJJ experience would know that.

I have personally watched a 120 lb girl tap a dude who was like 220, and pretty strong. They were both high white belts. They were about equal skill level, but she got him. Why? Because it was the dice roll, it could have gone either way. The point is that his size and strength didn't help him at all. In fact, in an art that uses *leverage* and *balance* as it's prime motivators, alot of time your own "larger" status can very easily be turned against you.

That which you work against works against you. The BEST guys who train at my gym, the purple and brown belts, they ALL move like they are asleep. They don't breath hard, they don't push hard, they NEVER muscle you or use force. BJJ is about being like a snake, not a raging bull. You can be highly highly effective and barley exert yourself.

It's a finnese game, and a technique game. Not a size or strength game.

[Sean Dempsey]

he has a weight advantage going on

I would say that there is no such thing in strict Gracie BJJ. Maybe for beginngers... up to blue belt range.

Or maybe I'm up in the night. I'd like to know what other people who train strict GracieJJ think.

[jules]

It's been billed that BJJ allows a smaller person to defeat a larger opponent.

I donno my coach tells me that it gives the smaller guy a "bigger chance".

This is true if the larger person has no idea about grappling.

Not exactly, Royce has defeated several talented grapplers (i.e Shamrock, severen, ect) that can grapple.

However, if both combatants are skilled in BJJ, the more experienced will most likely win. If they're both equal in skill, I would say the larger person has the advantage.

key point "if both combatants areskilled in BJJ..."

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by jules
I donno my coach tells me that it gives the smaller guy a "bigger chance".

Sure it does... U nless, the other guy is also doing BJJ and is bigger and stronger.

Originally posted by Sean Dempsey
As a BJJ practicioner and party-line Gracie student, Helio Gracie would laugh at that above statement.

"Size" doesn't make or break 2 BJJ people witn equal skill. "Strength" doesn't either. Why? Because neither of those are things you need for effective BJJ. They are way down the list. And people who have extensive BJJ experience would know that.

I have personally watched a 120 lb girl tap a dude who was like 220, and pretty strong. They were both high white belts. They were about equal skill level, but she got him. Why? Because it was the dice roll, it could have gone either way. The point is that his size and strength didn't help him at all. In fact, in an art that uses *leverage* and *balance* as it's prime motivators, alot of time your own "larger" status can very easily be turned against you.

I think you’re starting to fall into the martial arts mysticism routine. Strength and size ALWAYS makes a difference in some way or another. I don’t know of any advanced BJJ guy that doesn’t do strengthening exercises. You know why? Because if you’re skilled in the techniques, being stronger will greatly enhance your attributes.

There’s a lot of pulling and grabbing in BJJ. If you don’t have strength, you can’t always maintain your position. For instance, I notice a lot of skinny guys have a hard time keeping guys down in their guard. The stronger guy sits right up. Furthermore, a skinny guy in a mount is easier to dismount than a heavier guy. This is just simply a fact of life. Why else would they have weight classes in competition. I know people say, “the Gracies compete in all weight classes..” Well, as the founding family, one would expect that they can do that.

[Cain]

if two people are 100% the same when it comes to technique.. the stronger, faster and agiler WILL win.. end of story..

[Sean Dempsey]

Originally posted by Cain
if two people are 100% the same when it comes to technique.. the stronger, faster and agiler WILL win.. end of story..

...

Stronger, Faster and more Agile will win? Well that's a given. But we weren't talking about those 3, the title of the thread is "Big Guy Against Small Guy". "Big Guy" could mean strong, tall, big boned, fat, buff, husky, stalwart, slow, stiff, agile, awkward, off balance, deft... ??????

Quite possibly, with all these hypothetical scenarios, yeah, maybe "size" does have an advantage.

I am just curious as to if it's such a determining factor, why isn't it played out more in real life? Seems like smaller guys win just as much as larger.

Would you say that "well, all things weren't equal. If all things were equal but size, the larger guy would win!!!11"

This argument only works with qualified by "all things being equal".

At no time in the history of existance have 2 fighters ever been "all equal". There is no such thing as 2 identically skilled fighters, but one is bigger. In every situation, there is too many variables to calculate. What if the "bigger" guy is less limber, or too slow and musclebound, or what if he just found his wife cheating on him and is distracted, or what if he hasn't eaten all day. What if the big guy slips on the mats, or catches his toe in a seam.

"All things being equal" is a fallacy and an impossibility in reality. I don't even know what this thread is trying to say. Sure, if things were 100% equal, a bigger guy might have a noted advantage. And all things being equal, the guy who can shoot laser beams from his eyes might have the advantage also.

It doesn't make much difference, because the *real* factor in a fight is eye color. All things being equal, a person with brown eyes is gonna have the advantage.

[number18]

Originally posted by Sean Dempsey

I would say that there is no such thing in strict Gracie BJJ. Maybe for beginngers... up to blue belt range.

Or maybe I'm up in the night. I'd like to know what other people who train strict GracieJJ think.

Hm. I learn GJJ techniques but at the school I go to, some of the other (annoying, cocky) guys train BJJ too. The big guys there get lazy and REALLY like to use their weight against you...like just resting on your chest/face if they get the chance. I don't like it. And I know that they're being lazy by doing it. But I've seen them try to do that to more skilled people (I'm a beginner white belt) and have it be useless. I have also seen others of about the same skill roll with these big blue belts and have some trouble dealing with the lazy-rest-my-weight-on-you "technique." Really, they're not supposed to be doing that but since they can they do. In somes ways, it makes for good practice, I guess. You know what I'm saying? ^_^
I basically agree with your previous post as well. I like the "they all move like they're asleep" line actually. It paints a perfect picture.

Originally posted by Great Sage

I don’t know of any advanced BJJ guy that doesn’t do strengthening exercises.

I'm not so sure if I'd call it strength excercises so much as exercising for stamina. Stamina is one of the greatest factors to me in GJJ/BJJ. I mean, if you get tired, you're done. And you can get tired FAST if you don't have enough stamina.

[bhothak]

U only talk about strength and power...how about mental, dicipline and other things that really has got nothing to do with power....well in my opinion, even though u have power and strength, if u dont have a good control of your mental and guts, is useless dont you think?
cause onw of my cousand (whos about 100kg,no idea how many pound...cause im indonesian) who basiclly know nothing about grappling and all that self defence technique....he just beat up not someone that are an expert in self defence, but a military policemen...that just show you that, even though you have strength and power and muscle, that doesn't mean you can always beat up someone smaller then you.
i tell you what, beating up a military policemen is not something you can just doit and and get over it, you have to have guts to do it...you can get shot not by a 9mm or something, but a rifle maybe. so there you go....

[MrPoopy]

"Size" doesn't make or break 2 BJJ people witn equal skill. "Strength" doesn't either. Why? Because neither of those are things you need for effective BJJ. They are way down the list. And people who have extensive BJJ experience would know that.

I'd have to agree with Sean. It's not just the size they are talking about. It's also strength. The techniques can work even if a small, weak person is doing them. Maybe they won't always work, but a small, relatively weak person can have a big advantage with BJJ.

[Tom Yum]

As is true in stand up as well. People think that you have to be huge and incredibly strong to fight well.

But the people that say that have never sparred/grappled against accomplished fighters of all size. I've sparred against pro-fighters that go 60%, weight 138 and kick my ass, likewise I've sparred/grappled against impressively large, strong guys who couldn't touch me and get staggered quickly. I'm not huge either!

Size is more of a mental thing until the size/strength difference is immense and there is no difference in skill like De LaHoya and Hollyfield.