What good would that do you in a fight?

[jaykay]

[okay I stuffed up that first one]

I've never trained at a club where kata was used. My incredibly biased opinion is that when training you should use combinations based on the spur of the moment, not preset traditional forms.

Although at my club we *do* train in similar combinations a lot - but they aren't traditional by any means.

[MrPoopy]

What good would a fan do you in a fight? Are you going to fan him to death?

[jaykay]

Maybe if you're fighting in antartica you could whip up an icy storm and the wind chill factor will give your adversary frostbite.

[ryanhall]

That's probably one of the best put answers I have heard in a while. Cheers, Ryan.

Thanks, Ryu.

[Kosh]

Originally posted by ryanhall
...martial arts are not about self-expression...

do i need to point out the flaw in this statememt?

[Kosh]

Originally posted by MrPoopy
What good would a fan do you in a fight? Are you going to fan him to death?

There it is again!

...lol if you get in a fight and they pull out a fan...run.

[ryanhall]

do i need to point out the flaw in this statememt?

If you want to express yourself, become an artist or a writer. Martial arts should be about finding the truth in combat. The reason that most people don't respect them is because most people/schools/instructors have lost this focus. Some tell themselves that they still have it, but most don't.

If it looks real pretty (in a sort of beautiful self-expression sort of way), it probably don't work, son.

[Kosh]

A martial artist isnt an artist?

There are many types of beauty, simplicity is one.

A self expression of one person involves doing something elaborate. In your case, isn't taking the martial art to its fundamental core and removing superfluas movements an act of self expression?

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Ok to begin, what we call martial arts are actually Martial ways
Bu do, martial arts is Bu jitsu
Where MA is about fighting only, Martial way is about selfexpression, most of what we know as japanese martial arts are infact martial ways
A way to train yourself mentally using the techniques of Martial Arts

Anything with the suffix Do is martial Way, anything with suffix jitsu(jutsu) is a martial Art

Okinawa Kobujitsu is a martial art, but with weapons so not a lot of fighting there, Kenjitsu same thing

Just because it bears the name martial doesn't mean it can be used practically, fencing is a MA too but I do not think you can use it on the streets

training with stick will mean that whenever you get hold of a stick, you have an advantage, if not you rely on your other training

Anything extra is fine, spending the majority of training on it isn't

As cakegirl already stated, most people do not start with Martial sports because of selfdefence, rather they just like it

If you like doing summersaults, go do Wushu, who cares if it ain't practical, as long as you have fun doing it
If you like doing them from the top-rope go do Pro wrestling
As long as you have fun doing it

[Kosh]

Originally posted by Toudiyama[NL]
If you like doing summersaults, go do Wushu, who cares if it ain't practical, as long as you have fun doing it
If you like doing them from the top-rope go do Pro wrestling
As long as you have fun doing it

You didnt answer my question.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Being a martial "artist" involves self-expression, mental cultivation, spiritual insight, and constant self-examination.

In the realm of reality based self defense, there's no self-expression, beauty of art, etc. Your tactics and your body are weapons. Martial art is learning how to cause immense physical damage to your opponent in the least amount of time in the most realistic way.
The physical training and tactics are geared solely to the destruction of the attacker in front of you. In reality based combat, there is no such thing as "self-expression," but there is such a thing as "self-preservation."

The self-expression, cultivation of spirit, moral discipline that comes in martial art, comes usually from the proper mindsets in regards to the ethical issues, self-contemplation, and disciplined training of the tactics of martial art in real life.

It's silly to claim that a weapon has a morality or discipline to it by itself...... but in order to understand that weapon and use it in ways that will help life instead of hinder it, ethcial study, a disciplined mind, and self-understanding and examination should not be seperated from its use.

Ryu

[jaykay]

Toudiyama - from what I had read "do" meant to perfect the technique, and "jitsu" meant to fight. While I agree with your "do" = "way", I don't think "jitsu" means "art". Then again, I could be wrong, my japanese is rather pathetic.

Judo = The way of flexibility
Jujutsu = The fighting style of flexibility.

Then again, I train in the arts to fight, not to express myself.

[Kosh]

Chosing to practise a martial way which is focussed on combat and nothing else...is an act of self expression. Why is this simple fact so hard to see?

When you fight...you are expressing yourself. Your choice of style, the moves you chose, your training all say alot about you and are self expressive. Whether the style elaborat or efficient is irrelavent, because which you chose says something about you!

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Originally posted by jaykay
Toudiyama - from what I had read "do" meant to perfect the technique, and "jitsu" meant to fight. While I agree with your "do" = "way", I don't think "jitsu" means "art". Then again, I could be wrong, my japanese is rather pathetic.

Judo = The way of flexibility
Jujutsu = The fighting style of flexibility.

Then again, I train in the arts to fight, not to express myself.

Jitsu means perfecting the effectiveness of the technique, do the estetics, take kyudo, no matter if you mis the target, if the rest of the movement is perfect, then it is perfect as Kyudo

Art is a bit of a weird word here, as is artis in Martial Artist
It is not art as in Rembrand or van Gogh but art as in manner

Kenjitsu could be used for real, kendo can't
Iaijitsu teaches you to draw your sword and cut your opponent, Iaido, teaches almost the same but it should look good
Iaido uses a adapted(less heavy) sword, no good to cut anything

Often the translation of japanese term isn't too good but we are used to this specific translation

e.g. Karate isn't a Marail Art, it isn't even a Martial Way
Why because Martial has to do with soldiers, Karate wasn't used at the battlefield, it is a civil defence art, but we still call it MA

[Szczepankiewicz]

Like most of our debates, we are arguing the gray area from different perspectives.

Chiming in on the whole tennis thing.

Athletics in general will improve your chances for survival. They build strength, endurance, and flexibility, which are key ingredients, in my opinion, to physical survival.

Some sports (tennis, marathon running etc) build mental toughness and the ability to focus under stress. These sports provide some good training as well.

However (enter caveat), as was stated, the overall assumption made about MA is that you can 'defend yourself', which, as Ryu stated, is and should be more about 'Self Preservation' or simply put 'survival'.

No doubt tennis is tough, both physically and mentally, however no one is trying to do you or your loved ones gross bodily harm.

So I guess I come down to two questions concerning how I spend my training time:

1) Will it help me survive?

2) How much will it help me to survive?

Spanky