BJJ in multiple opponent situation?

[Seifer2399]

Hello all, just had my first BJJ (emphasis on free-style JJ and MT) class, had a BLAST, and just wondering . . .

Does BJJ require performance against multiple opponents? Or is it understood that being outnumbered is one of those times where BJJ is not even considered, and no confrontation is the best ploy?

Best regards,

Seifer2399

[wadoguy]

I was reading one of the books put out by the Gracie family (forgive me I can't recall which one) and there was an attempt to answer the supposed flaws in bjj. The writer stated that bjj will not protect you against multple, determined attackers and neither will any other system.
He whent on to say that there were many outrageous claims in the martial arts world and that many of the systems that proclaimed they could defend against multiple attackers had proven themselves incapable of defeating even a single opponet in mixed martial arts contests.
I really enjoyed his openess and humilty. The martial arts are filled with people claiming their style is the ultimate and can do miracles. This author franly admitted the limitations of his style.

[Maxetai]

I was reading one of the books put out by the Gracie family (forgive me I can't recall which one) and there was an attempt to answer the supposed flaws in bjj. The writer stated that bjj will not protect you against multple, determined attackers and neither will any other system.

Sure he did (Gracie). But did he mention/state that the rules and restrictions of MMA tournaments and so called "no holds barred fighting" (UFC for instance) favor the grapplers?
Check this out and you be the judge:

-No kicking if one is wearing shoes (foot gear).

-Soft matted floor to fight in. Never a regular "hard" floor we encounter 99.99% in our everyday life.

-Head butts forbidden.

-No biting, No gouging (eyes).

-No striking in the groin.
etc....etc....etc...
And this is called reality fighting ?
I say it's like my local High School Wrestling with a few punches and kicks just to fool others and ourselves into believing that we are watching "No Holds Barred" fighting.

A good fighter is good in all ranges of fighting (Kicking, Punching, Trapping, and Grappling/Wrestling. By this I mean that a good fighter knows/can fight in any range if need be, and more importantly can protect himself (has the ability) in any range.

Don't misunderstand me: I value grappling very much and BJJ is one of the best systems for this range, but this is only one piece of the puzzle called FIGHTING.

[adacas]

In many kajukenbo schools especially those that use the original do a lot a training with the emphasis of defending against multiple attackers and they are good drills but like you guys said no art is really capable of truly being able to defend against multiple attackers. Especially if at least one of those attackers is trained or has some experience. I found this article a while back.

Aside from the grappling superiority, Reylson is the first to admit that his system doe's have weaknesses when it comes to fighting multiple attacker's. He elaborated by saying " I once fought 4 guys and won, but I'm no superman. After I beat the first one quickly the other 3 ran away. If they had all attacked me at the same time it would have been a different story".

I like an honest person. Too bad there are still people preaching about their perfect art.

[NWPTrainer]

I appreciate the Gracie's candor in this topic, but I still think they are a little off-base. No, most martial artists and people are not going to be able to defend against multiple assailants, especailly in an unarmed environment. If you put some guy in the Octagon with five guys chasing him? He's getting his ass kicked. WHat about in the REAL WORLD though? NOt necessarily...IN the real world, he has the option of pulling a knife or gun, or even just grabbing a tire iron, etc....the force multiplier offered by a weapon evens a lot of odds in the solo fighter's situation. The problme with MMA/NHB tournaments was well expressed above by Maxetai. I know that a BJJ fighter who is concerned with real-world self-defense will know how to fudge his art to be a little more brutal, but does he actively SEEK weapons in his surrounding environment? Probably not...SOme guy trained in FMA may not either, but he is far more likely too, at least in my experience...The biggest problem with MMA/NHB/BJJ is that they have adopted the tournament arena as the "ultimate" crucible of testing what works int he real world. THey say you cannot beat a knife unarmed, but shit, people do it everyday, and most with no training whatsoever...They were a great force in the reality self-defense field, because they opened a lot of people's eyes to the ground game, but they've since become way too dogmatic, as have their followers. Instead of going for a kimura lock when you;ve mounted your opponent, why don;t you stand the **** up and stomp on his knees or ankles? That prevetns him chasing you when you run away, like a good citizen...

RLTW

[jules]

Maxetai,
The rules differ from competiton to competition. Acutally the first few UFC's had no rules other than "No biting" IIRC.

[FUH-Q]

first, max....the no kicking rule only applies to the fighter wearing the shoes, not the other guy. so if you want to kick, just dont wear shoes.

also, those rules are there for a reason, how many world class fighters do you think they could get to actually fight if they allpwed techniques that could cost them their vision or transmit virusses.

that being said, do you honestly think that these guys that compete dont know how to stick their finger in someones eye or kick him in the balls. the reason that stuff isnt allowed is so that these fighters can continue to function afterwards.

if a system works in these tournaments it works in the street, traditional martial artists arent losing because of rules imposed on them, they lose because those old systems dont work.

also, how do you figure it avors grapplers? the floor is not soft, its just like a boxing ring floor and any of the rules imposed are set to keep people from dying or getting very serious injuries.

[ryanhall]

if a system works in these tournaments it works in the street

To a degree.

traditional martial artists arent losing because of rules imposed on them, they lose because those old systems dont work.

That's more true than false, no question about that.

the floor is not soft, its just like a boxing ring floor

Which is pretty soft when compared to tile or asphalt. Some of the slams that you see in the ring would knock out or kill people if they were done on a less forgiving surface.

any of the rules imposed are set to keep people from dying or getting very serious injuries

Correct.

[HuSanYan]

Originally posted by FUH-Q
if a system works in these tournaments it works in the street,

Go back to sleep Kiddo

[Cain]

simply stating that "well, noone can fight multiple opponents anyway" or that "if you know how to fight in UFC, you know how to fight in the real world" is ignorant...

first:

ofcourse fighting multiple opponents is hard.. maybe almost impossible.. but so is fighting someone with a stick, a knife or a baseball bat.. but should we just drop preparing for these events just beacause they are difficult? I say no! and out on the street.. you can use the element of surprise... common objects, weapons.. many things! and you can easily take the iniative. Ofcourse it is impossible to fight 3-5 highly skilled fighters in a limited ring.. but in a bar? Where you can use glasses, pool balls, chairs.. your opponents are far from skilled fighters, you can use the enviroment actively.. a much better chance, if you know how and are prepared. Just stating that "well, fighting multiple opponents is impossible" is a very limiting mindset.



second: UFC is a sport tournament.. soft mat, rules, you are fighting in something similar to a boxer-shorts, a judge will stop the fight if you get hurt, the level of adrenaline is far less than in a surprising situation out in the real world. How often do you go to bars wearing a boxer, a susp/cup and a thooth protector? and how often is the floor where you are going to fight soft.. ? and well.. out on the asfalt... who is going to throw in the towel when you're lying on your back getting your head smashed into the ground? are there any chairs... tables.. glasses.. in the ring? nopes.. don't think so... so, UFC may be great fighting... for sports.. but the real thing? or anywhere like it? not really..

[IPON]

"if a system works in these tournaments it works in the street" I agree but also some systems that don't work in the ring can work on the streets. Generally speaking any of these highly trained MAs would be tough to beat ina real situation unbeatable no, but tough.

And I think the issue is that people assume that the ring=reality and it doesn't and shouldn't for the reasons that you stated. But I think you have a lot of people flooding BJJ schools becuase they think they will become the ultimate warrior, just like they did (and I guess still do) with JKD becuase of Lee.

I agree with everyone about multiple attacker, not impossible but not a situation I would want to be in (and have ben in). The difference between BJJ and some other styles is that multiple attackers is at least taken into consideration and you are trained how to deal with it - of course level of training dpends on teh school. BJJ is basically is a 1 on 1 art there is no secret about that. I think it is not the Gracies but other people who feel it is invincible in every situation. As soon as you go to the ground you are committed to one person - and are comprimised, this is the reason why judo and Jujitsu don't focus entirely on ground fighting (IMHO). Not saying there is anything wrong with BJJ I plan to study it becuse of the advanced groundfighting to round out my grappling arsenal.

But every style has its weaknesses some much more than others.

[NWPTrainer]

Originally posted by FUH-Q
also, those rules are there for a reason, how many world class fighters do you think they could get to actually fight if they allpwed techniques that could cost them their vision or transmit virusses.

Yep.....but what is stopping them from getting killed or catching a bloodborne pathogen in the real world. IN the military we had an axiom that too amny people in the martial arts world speak but refuse to live....."TRain how you'll fight, because you will fight how you've trained." You need to practice the nasty, dirty, yucky techniques, even if it's just in drills, or they will never become an instinctive weapon in your arsenal.

[QUOTEthat being said, do you honestly think that these guys that compete dont know how to stick their finger in someones eye or kick him in the balls. the reason that stuff isnt allowed is so that these fighters can continue to function afterwards.[/quote]
I said above that, yes, they DO know how to add some "dirty" tricks, but that is not the same as instinctively looking for, and grabbing, a weapon of opportunity, and using it. Gouging one BGs eye might help you survive a multiple assailnat situation, but caving his skull in with a tire iron will be much mroe efficient. The problem with groudfighting based approaches, is that they never even factor shit like that into the mental game. I know way too many guys that if you tackle 'em and try to lay in a kimura lock, or even gouge out their eye with your thumb, their buddies are gonna tapdance on the back of your skull.

if a system works in these tournaments it works in the street,

Bullshit.

also, how do you figure it avors grapplers? the floor is not soft, its just like a boxing ring floor and any of the rules imposed are set to keep people from dying or getting very serious injuries.

Dude, ain't no boxing ring or Octagon or cage as hard a surface as an asphalt parking lot with broken glass bottles and other debris laying around. There is no Octagon in the MMA world where being the victim of a powerhouse double leg takedown is followed, immediately, by four rednecks stomping on your skull with Justin Ropers.
If you wanna know how to use your BJJ for dealing with multiple assailants, focus on escaping the bottom position so you can IMMEDIATELY get back on your feet and draw your SIG, and start laying down suppressive fire.

RLTW

[Great Sage]

Yes, after a much needed break from internet reality, the Sage has returned (you all knew it was inevitable).

You know, this topic is so misunderstood. How many times do we here: “What martial art can I take for fighting”, or “How will this work in a Street Fight, multiple attackers?, etc...” When in reality, most martial arts gyms lack the psychological and practical techniques to train street fighters.

What’s so “martial” about martial arts these days? The term “martial” implies warlike, warrior status, etc. Yet, we always hear that certain people partake in martial arts for different reasons, wether it be sport, hobby or self-preservation. Well, there’s nothing “martial” about any of this at all.

The truth is most martial arts gyms DON’T teach you how to fight at all. They teach you forms, sparring and tradition. While some attributes you gain (speed, skill, stamina and strenght) can be used in REAL fights, it’s not a given that you can adapt to a situation as brutal and uncertain as a REAL assualt. I’ve trained in karate for 10 years and I get jumped by a desperate mugger. Worst yet, he’s armed with a knife. Are all those forms and controlled sparring sessions going to help me, or should I reach for the nearest pipe, brick, broken glass, etc... Am I better served to cooperate and run like the wind when the opportunity presents itself? I think so...

Why didn’t I use my karate? Well, maybe I throw a front kick at his arm. If I miss, he stabs me to death. If I hit my target, maybe my foot gets stabbed, or the knife doesn’t fall out and I get stabbed anyway. But hey, I got to try my karate right? No thanks. Do yourself a favor: Make a knife out of cardboard, then have a friend try and slice you as many times as possible while you try and take it away. You’ll get my point...

Let me clarify something for people who are geniunely interested in self-defense. Whether it be BJJ, karate, kung-fu or boxing, etc... you’re training with a sport or controlled mindset. Bascially, there’s no sense of danger and you’re able to focus on techniques that work within the confines of your art. Throw in weapons, mutliple assailants and NO RULES and up the stakes with your life and EVERYTHING changes. Needless to say, it’s naive to believe that just because you do BJJ, or Muay Thai that you can just turn it on when you need to.

[Great Sage]

Oh... And on another note. Everyone repeated mentions UFC, Pride, K-1 fighters, etc... These guys are good because they're athletes. They've conditioned themselves and have natural attributes that surpass the norm. Such is the case for Olympic long-jumpers, runners and swimmers. Therefore, comparing yourself or your art by using professional fighters as an axiom is detrimental to the reality of fighting, as it pertains to you.

[HuSanYan]

Great Sage Eloquently put indeed sir, I categorically agree with every single sentence in both of your posts above...