eXcessiveForce

okay tone it down guys,

Thanks.

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eXcessiveFORCE.

If you must use force, make it excessive.

sojobow

On a more serious note, since the start of my studying Ninjitsu, the first thing I learned was that the greatest weapons you have is not letting others know what you do or how you do it. The Myths, legends, psycho-warfare are part of what we do and how we do it. Even Sensei Hatsumi will not teach you pure Ninjutsu (definately if you are not Japanese). But a little is better the none. If you don't study the Way, you'll never know. Have fun with this link: http://www.kushanku.de/aktuell/aktuell_ninja.php3

jubaji

Whether Hatsumi Sensei is actually privy to such information being in question among certain circles aside, have you read or heard anything first-hand that leads you to believe he limits what he will teach according to nationality or race?

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sojobow

Pardon the confusion. Not my intent. Definately do not want to put nationality or race in the discussion. Hopefully, to tone down any confusion, I'll take your response in 2 parts:

1. ....have your read or heard anything first-hand that leads you to believe he limits what he will teach.....?

As for this section: I've heard and read a lot about what Sensei Hatsumi will and will not teach. Both from his own writings and all over the web. If I could find a dojo that teaches, as its core, Togakure Ryu Ninpo, Kumogakure Ryu Ninpo or Gyokushin Ryu Ninpo, I would not hesitate to enroll (if DRN didn't exist). But, outside of Japan, I couldn't find a school that teaches any of these 3 Ruy-ha as a core element.

2. ......according to nationality or race?.....

Don't think it has anything to do with race or other anything having to do with nationality. The 3 schools are property of Sensei Hatsumi. He can do with them as he pleases as passed to him from Mr. T.. If he is more confortable with these 3 schools (more like the entire 9) selectively taught privately, so be it.

Do you know anyone in the US that has an authorized school teaching any of the 3 Ninpo/Ninjutsu Ryu listed above? Not part of another school, not part of Bujinkan, but, Pure Toga, Kumo or Gyo?

jubaji

Then why did you say it that way?

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sojobow

More interesting is why you took it that way. It has always been interesting to me why people see Race in so many things. Since I don't believe in Race or even in Nationality (except when used in the study of humans in geographic space), I don't think very highly of a conversation involving these subjects. I admit, I'm known to be somewhat obtuse and enigmatic in communications. I usually do so on purpose just to see how others react to "Words". In martial arts, words are also weapons. It is interesting to see how you were able to glean this two-word term from my post and react to it as you did. If you need a more acceptable answer to why I said it that way, please accept that I am really pissed off because Sensei Hatsumi may have authentic knowledge of pure Ninjitsu and probably the war arts of the Kan. Three pure schools and he won't come here and teach them to me. That pisses me off. Sure glad my teacher lives less than a half-hour from me though. Can't look a gift-horse in the mouth.

sojobow

Allow me to throw some coals on the fire about Ninjitsu and the Samurai. (a) The Samurai had no use for the Ninja and believed the Ninja to be low humans. (b) The Ninja did use what we call the Ninja-to and the Jian straight Swords. Early Ninja did not use a Katana as the "Ninja" developed hundreds of years before the Katana was developed (actually, a Ninja-to was excavated in China dating back over 2000 years very much like a Ninja-to excavated in Japan dated back 1600 years). The word Ninja/Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu is Japanese but the war art they practiced is quite ancient. Was known by another name (other names) long before someone stuck the "Ninja" lable on the practitioner. Koga and Iga are only a small drop in the bucket of actual concealed warriors of Asia, southeast asia and the eastern sections of the middle-east. The Samurai did not invent the Katana. They were the dominant users of the blade but someone from another geographic region invented the blade.

Do I have any proof? Thought you would bring that up so, to pre-empt, one picture of a Ninja-to as excavated in shown on a very reputable Sword Forum. Actual Ninja-to are in a Japanese Museum as well as in a couple of Chinese Research Departments (University) and in a Buddhist Temple in Japan. Historical records very common in Japan speak of many wars between Samurai and Ninja. Guess they didn't like each other for a few hundred years. The most honored documents written by actual Ninja speak of how they borrowed their war art from someone else. If you believe the authors were really Ninja, you must then believe them when they tell you from where they developed their skills. Lastly, there is a mountain in Japan where the first people of Japan learned what is known as ninjitsu. No secret place as worshippers travel there every year in dedication. You want be too taken aback when you find out who built the Temple and what was their country of origin. You also won't be too upset when you find out that the most famous Ninja was a Chinese. Don't hate on sojo, he just wants everyone to look closer at the best martial art known to man. Don't really care who, what, where. But "why" is the most important question. As you figure out "why" Ninjitsu (or whatever anyone calls it) it came about, you'll then have a clue as to why it works so well. Another question needing an answer to is Buddhistic believe/practice a necessary element to the effectiveness of "Ninjitsu?"

Just some mindless ramblings - maybe not.

jubaji

Your comments were unambiguous in that regard. Go read them again if you've forgotten already.

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jubaji

That's not 'enlightened,' its just ignorant.

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jubaji

...........................

That makes no sense.

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jubaji

..............................

No.

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jubaji

Now, that I believe!

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Sagacious Lu

What other way is there to take it? You can try to glibly back pedal but the fact is that YOU were the one that brought up race.

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Tom Yum

GO GET 'UM LU!

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Love it, leave it or fix it.

sojobow

See what I mean? In Ninjitsu, words are also weapons. You've given me the reaction the sentence/phrase was intended to get - notwithstanding everything written above the sentence.

If the Samurai attacked the Christians of Southern Japan and just about wiped the Christians off the Country and, the Samurai attacked the Iga and just about wiped the Iga out also, I'd say the Samurai didn't like either of these groups. But, you are correct with the "No." One could also take this as saying that the Samurai were just taking orders and these attacks weren't personal. I've seen this great painting depicting the war against the Iga. The painting shows a Koga fighting alongside the Igas (at least that is what was represented by the owner of the painting). Strange that today, the Iga don't really appreciate the Koga. So much as to say that the Koga no longer exist and that the only line of the Ninja existing today are the Iga. Of course, none of this matters when some criminal points a .357 at your temple. Guess I should stop talking a practice.

*Pick your sentence carefull*