koto_ryu

This is the qualifications a ryu has to meet in order to become a ninjutsu ryuha:

1) Ninja no Taijutsu - Koshijutsu, Koppojutsu
2) Ninja no Ken - Ninja Sword Methods
3) Ninja no Yari - Ninja Spear Methods
4) Ninja no Kiai - Ninja Voice Harmonizing
5) Shuriken - Throwing Blades
6) Kajutsu - Fire, Smoke, Explosives
7) Yugei - Polite Arts (ie.- Tea Ceremony)
8) Kyomon - Observational Arts

As you can see, it'll be a lifetime to master even some of those, much less all of them. If you're really feeling ambitious, however, you could also try to master all of the ninja juhakkei, which include in addition to those eight:

Bajutsu (horsemanship)
Bo-ryaku (strategy)
Bojutsu (stick and staff fighting)
Chi-mon (geography)
Cho ho (espionage)
Hensojutsu (disguise and impersonation)
Intonjutsu (escape and concealment)
Kayakujutsu (fire and explosives)
Kusarigama (chain and sickle weapon)
Naginatajutsu (halberd fighting)
Ninja ken (ninja sword)
Seishin teki kyoyo (spiritual refinement)
Shinobi iri (stealth and entering methods)
Shurikenjutsu (throwing blades)
Sui ren (water training)
Taijutsu (unarmed combat)
Ten-mon (meteorology)
Yarijutsu (spear fighting)

So they'd be pretty hard-pressed to master every single aspect of ninjutsu. And that's not even touching the bugei skills

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KOTO RYU



My favorite neg rep points earned so far:
"ofeensive and inconsequent young man, should be banned!!" - Xebsball

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sojobow

Are you sure a "ninja" in circa 1400 a.d. actually trained and was competent in all the 26-27 items you've listed? I've also heard that some Ninja were specialist and may have been competent in only one or two of the above items.

As a side thought? Who or what organization qualifies a ninjutsu ryu-ha today?

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Bloody Face

I wonder what level of importance did they place upon unarmed combat as opposed to armed. And if that would galvanize people's opinion of people such as Dux whom added or subtracted elements incongruous to ascension or progression in the art as applied to today's world and likely situations of conflict.

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koto_ryu

This is according to a lot of reputable historians, especially those who deal a lot in Japanese history. They were not all competent in the items that was listed, but they definitely had some experience in each area. It'd be impossible to master each and every single one of them, hence why what you said before:

"What then happens when you've learned, to almost perfection, the eight skills or the 36 skills and the opponent is still better than you and he/she has only half the experience/background?"

....would be a hard thing to judge. Nobody's ever going to master all 18. Someone could get to be pretty damn good in many of them, but even those who have been doing the martial arts for years are only going to have a handful of things truly mastered, but be very skilled in every other aspect.

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KOTO RYU



My favorite neg rep points earned so far:
"ofeensive and inconsequent young man, should be banned!!" - Xebsball

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koto_ryu

They preferred to travel with a minimum amount of gear and never knew who or what they would exactly be facing, so they did spend a lot of time on armed combat. However, knowing full well that armed can quickly become unarmed, they made sure they did plenty of their fair share of unarmed combat training, from striking, throws, joint locks, bone breaking, and the like to weapon disarms, avoidance techniques, and kyushojutsu.

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KOTO RYU



My favorite neg rep points earned so far:
"ofeensive and inconsequent young man, should be banned!!" - Xebsball

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sojobow

Too many big words for me. But it does beg a question:

You mention "people such as Dux whom added or subtracted element......." For the sake of discussion, is it possible that, instead of adding or subtracting, another artform was developed that contained elements, in an eclectic manner. If a person starts/begins with 3, 4 or 5 different styles and brings them together to initiate a new style, he isn't adding elements incongruous to ascenioin or progression in the art, he would have initiated a new art containing all of the ingredients. No single one is more important than the whole - any one can be eliminated without eliminating the whole. Where did the conversation infer that someone started with Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu and then added/deleted elements? What if their new art initially consisted of (example only) Street fighting, military combat, Jujitsu, Sun Tzu, Ninjitsu initially, then added/subtracted such arts as Muay Tai (sp.l), Chinese sword fighting, Kung Fu, Tai Chi? Just a thought.

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sojobow

The above also pre-supposes that there existed some type of "School or Ryu." How would we debate a conglomerate of 18 or 36 arts with the inference that some "Ninja" techniques were passed from father to son in a 'family' manner versus a clan. What is taught in these one-on-one trainings? You also pre-suppose that there existed some type of "organized" training when it is not clear if (a) all Ninja were, or were not, Samurai, (b)some Ninja may have been Yamabushi, (c) some were physically much larger and stronger or smaller and weaker than others, (d) some were middle-aged and elders versus teenagers, and (e) some were female?

She'd have to be real good to slice with that Ninja-To against a fully armored Samurai. We still have problems in the US Military with women on the front lines. In Japan, I think they still sit in the back seat but 500 years ago, women were taught 18 Samurai arts and then 18 more Ninja arts? Something is wrong with this picture.

Then you have someone come along and ask: Prove to me that there ever were such a thing as a "Ninja."

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jubaji

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Hikage

Is this not the premise of MMA? However, I would suggest that someone who does this needs to be careful. It is dangerous for someone such as a 4th dan to start mixing and matching styles, as he does not as of yet understand enough of the higher system to really know what he is doing.

That being said, when I say that I practice ninjitsu, I am not being totally forthcoming. I practice one such variation, called Hoshin Jitsu Ryu. We have eliminated many of the elements of ninjitsu, such as assassination and pyrotechnics, that are really no longer essential to the survival of the practitioner.

Furthermore, when picking and chosing elements to an art, one cannot randomly decide on styles to add in. In your example, one could not blend tai chi and muy thai as the two really are in opposition. It is not to say that a muy thai stylist could not be required by his/her instructor to know something about tai chi. By definition, you could not say that they were under one umbrella rather that the local dojo teaches two styles. The reason that a ninjitsu stylist can learn 36 different things (or whatever the number was) is that they are all really inter-related. The basic steps and strikes are identical for weapons such as halberds, spears, sticks, swords, etc. Only minor adaptations are needed in order to be proficient with the weapon. Mastering the weapon would then require further study beyond the basics.

When you go about creating new styles by combining others, you need to blend the movements and philos so that the combination appears seamless. I'm over simplifying, but to teach a new student that when he's performing a technique from this style, he/she's to step this way, or step that way when performing techniques from another art will serve only to confuse the learner. Rather, having a predicatble system of philosophies and movements will augment learner success and achievement.

-Hikage

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sojobow

Ooooooopz, my bad. Wrong country. Must be Saudi Arabia or Afganistan. Too much caffine.

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sojobow

Not really. The premise of MMA (except in Chinese Martial Arts) is to cross-train to make one a better sports exhibitionist. Things like NHB and other commercialized ring competitions. My example was more directed to someone starting a style with only Ninjitsu as it's base and modifying within that Ninjitsu base versus starting a new style with multiple disciplines INCLUDING Ninjitsu as its base and subsequently refining within these multiple disciplines. I think the systems created are more important than the creator(s).

Just noted: Seems this thread has well over 8,000 views. Why does Ninjitsu command such interest? Better watch what we say. Someone else is paying attention. Didn't see too many threads with views exceeding 200 let alone 8,000. Don't let the thread meander however, this was just something I noticed.

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sojobow

Actually, I'd like to go back to this reply. Koto_Ryu previously wrote the following (in part):

He adds:

He again adds the ninja juhakkei :

Are we saying that one single individual in circa 1400 +/- a.d.. practiced and was proficient in all of the above, or are we saying that, out of hundreds of individuals known as Ninja, these hundreds of individuals practiced one or more of the above? But since they were all known as Ninja, Shinobi etc., this is a list of what they practiced. Kind of confusing, but I hope you can tell the difference.

It would seem that any Ninjutsu practitioner should know the complete list of 36 plus the list of what qualifies as a Ninjutsu Ryu-ha, however, it may be that none of us should be required to become proficient in each individual item. I'm definately not going to think we all have to dawn the war attire, jump on a horse, and fight with the katana just because someone did so 5, 6 or 700 years ago so that I can say that I practice a traditional art form.

I'd much rather learn and use what works today. Just my opinion. All are welcomed to theirs.

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Bloody Face

I'd much rather learn and use what works today. Just my opinion. All are welcomed to theirs.[/QUOTE]


That's works for me brother...and to whom were attacking your views earlier seem to be rather fascistic to me.

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sojobow

The usual lineup: Shihan Van Donk, Stephen Hayes, Ashida Kim/Chris Hunter/Haha Lung, Hanshi Frank Dux, Rick Tew, Durbin (sp.l). These names taken from the just the last 3 pages of this thread. It's always interesting to read statements made by people that actually know these individuals personally compared to reading opinions from those who have never met, trained with, or observed life in action. "Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear." I've just helped in that this subject has nothing to do with our main questions on what the heck is ninjutsu/jitsu. If my attitude seems cloaked in fascism, it's only because we attack those who aren't here to defend themselves. I do the same for you and don't know you from Adam or Eve.

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koto_ryu

This is the schooling similar to what they had. Ninjutsu more concentrates on being a sort of jack of all trades, master of none. You don't really want to focus solely on one area as it's going to limit you in other areas. At least that's from my take and the take of some of the ninja throughout history.

Well first off much of the bugei skills are similar to the juhakkei, so there wouldn't be an actual 36. The ninja hachimon (the eight skills posted before) is what all historians and sokes say determines what is an actual ninjutsu ryuha.

And we do much of that is well. We often come in wearing street clothes and free grapple with each other, focus more on weapon disarms of weapons likely to be faced (e.g. knives and the like over say, a war axe), as well as awareness and legal issues of self-defense. Hell, we have a handgun seminar in the next month or so. Just because we do some things the traditional way, doesn't mean it's all the old way. Like any authentic art, things evolve. It's how you help them evolve which shows if it's for the better or the worse (worse being modern TKD with its point sparring and chest punches).

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KOTO RYU



My favorite neg rep points earned so far:
"ofeensive and inconsequent young man, should be banned!!" - Xebsball

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