The Ultimate in Martial Arts

Sid_Vicious · 01-25-2004, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sojobow

The WOLFENIZATION of Sid_Vicious continues. All we need now are Takezo, Power Teacher and Bjjf.

Great point Wolfen. Answer the man's question sid_v. Then maybe try to stick to the point of this thread. Good to see you both.

Anyone want to answer the thread's initiator's question?

Wolfen made no point except he followes me like a puppy, crying about proof and ignoring any evidence presented no matter what the source. He has not done any research into what he says or does, it is simply cultist behavior that is intended but fails to harass me specifically.

you both have a vested interest in validating frank dux. Give it up, you cannot and have not ever been able to prove anything your leader Frank Dux does or says. It is nothing new.

Sid_Vicious · 01-25-2004, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sojobow

Carefull now Sid_Vicious. Remember the subtitles were "What Other's Say...." What other's say is a dangerous road to follow. Remember I must have been there with Hanshi, according to you. Example: How much did Van Damme pay Hanshi?

Prove anything he says Mr. Warren. the mountain of proof against him and you is bigger than "you" even realize. You have not done your own research into what this man even claims. you only know what other have told you. You have nothing but what you are told.

so you can continue to type your nice fake text all you want. you showed your true colors long ago, quite easily I might add.

Uber_Tap · 01-25-2004, 01:23 AM

Sid_Vicious has at this point at least posted sources that he feels support the theory that Dux is fake, where as I haven't seen any postings from the supporters that help to validate his claims(the world records come to mind). I have no vested interest in either arguement, but I am very curious to see if his allies have any references that can validate his claims. Please post any non-biased refrences from third party sources you may have, I would be very interested to read them.

sherwinc · 01-25-2004, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertG

Ok for the Nth time---there is no ninjitsu. Get it through your heads people, it is a fabrication of storytellers during the Tokugawa era in Japan for mass entertainment. There is no mention of ninja's prior to this in Japan. Ninja Ryu's date all the way back to, ummm, right after WWII when some Japanese got the bright idea of selling American's this Japanese folklore wrapped up in black pajamas (just like the Lee brothers got the bright idea of repackaging Hapkido with some weapons, psychic powers, Easter medicine and hiding in the woods as Hwarang Do).

First off, a bushi would have done whatever it is that ninja's are supposed to do. That is, some daimyo isn't going to employ some dude who lives in the mountains and wears black pajamas to sneak around the enemy camp. He's going to send one of his better samurai to do it. Not surprisingly we find "ninjitsu" elements in the authentic Bujitsu schools in Japan (Katori Shinto Ryu for instance). Espionage and assasination were not separate from the arts the bushi practiced. Secondly, ninjitsu, like the traditional Japanese Bujitsu, would be a weapons art. Ninja, if they existed, would have to fight samurai, who were always armed with multiple weapons. The elaboration of unarmed arts in Japan occurred during the Tokugawa (peacetime) period, not during the period of warfare that preceeded it. According to the fictional accounts the ninja were destroyed by then anyway. So unarmed ninja techniques are totally bogus. If there were an authentic ninjitsu it'd look more like Kali than bad karate/judo (which it resembles now). Thirdly, the guys that lived in the mountains and fought the samurai back in the day were known as the yamabushi ("mountain warriors", though some, paradoxically, lived in monasteries on the plains). This is where the ninja mythology comes from. Yamabushi were basically like Shaolin monks--e.g. Buddhists who sat around training to fight all day long. They actually did fight the samurai on a regular basis. They were, however, eventually crushed. To my knowledge, no yamabushi ryu have been passed down to the present. Again, these would have been ARMED arts (you go ahead and try to wrestle a guy in armor with 2 swords, a few daggers, and a spear...right). They didn't run around in black pajamas. If they conducted covert type ops, it was not the focus of their studies. There isn't any big secret to being stealthy. You run around at night and don't make a lot of noise.

Anyway, the fact is, no serious historian of the Japanese martial arts has been able to find a shred of evidence there were any real ninjas or ninjitsu schools. Oh, but they must have burned all the evidence of their existence.

Nope. There were guys employed by warlords in Japan and guys employed by monasteries. They used the same weapons pretty much and fought in pretty much the same ways. There was no secret society of mystical assassins in Japan or Korea or anywhere else. Never happened. So give it up.

Beyond the mere historical facts, there is this to consider as well---ninjitsu is totally untested. By this I mean that even granting it historical legitimacy, it, like all the other Japanese arts, would have de-evolved as it were during the Tokugawa period. Since no one fought for real anymore, the arts became antiquated. Kano discovered this with Jujitsu (and the Gracie's did separately across the ocean). The old Jujitsu styles (developed largely during peacetime and removed from combat for hundreds of years) contained many techniques that wouldn't work against real, resisting opponents. Well, obviously ninjitsu, having never gone through the testing phase that Judo, BJJ and others have gone through, is largely devoid of real world applicability. It hasn't come fresh from the field like Kali or some Silat styles. Even if there were ninjas, no one has used ninjitsu to kill anyone for about 500 years. Kali was probably used to kill someone today, and will be again tomorrow. Its a living art still used in real combat. Ninjitsu isn't.

Beyond all that, all I have to say is that Ninjas are so sweet they make me want to crap my pants.

Ninja's do exist, want a proof????

sho Kusugi is one of the proof...

he is a ninja....

convinced??????????

Sid_Vicious · 01-26-2004, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sherwinc

Ninja's do exist, want a proof????

sho Kusugi is one of the proof...

he is a ninja....

convinced??????????

how would a man's name convince anyone? is there anyone out there that can show any proof that a ninja is anything more than an american capitolistic exageration?

Sid_Vicious · 01-28-2004, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uber_Tap

Sid_Vicious has at this point at least posted sources that he feels support the theory that Dux is fake, where as I haven't seen any postings from the supporters that help to validate his claims(the world records come to mind). I have no vested interest in either arguement, but I am very curious to see if his allies have any references that can validate his claims. Please post any non-biased refrences from third party sources you may have, I would be very interested to read them.

I would like to clarify, Frank Dux is/was a competent martial artist, IMHO he is not a ninja nor does he teach koga yamabushi ninjitsu. Sojobow, wolfen1842 and others that practice Dux ryu ninjitsu, regularly try to recruit noobies into the mess that is DRN through threads such as this and other methods, making it seem very mysterious and acting like in that mystery it offers something hidden and completely different, they constanly "imply" DuxRyuNinjitsu has lineage dating back to the koga region of japan in it's feudal age, which cannot be proven nor has it ever even attempted to prove this, they just "say" it. They always invite you to come down and check it out. It is simply a cheesy sales pitch for you to sign up at their McDojo. I am not telling anyone NOT to try it out, just get educated. Their cultist behavior in regards to frank dux can at first be shocking, and seem quite sincere , I simply would like potential students to have a good idea what they are getting into BEFORE they go, not after. Have a nice day.

sojobow · 01-30-2004, 02:41 AM

[QUOTE=RobertG.

[/QUOTE]
RobertG 09-26-2003, 04:25 PM #6
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok for the Nth time---there is no ninjitsu. Get it through your heads people, it is a fabrication of storytellers during the Tokugawa era in Japan for mass entertainment.

10-01-2003, 05:37 AM #20
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stupid **** eh?

All right grubby lets break this down for you again.

Joo Bang Lee was teaching Hapkido is Korea

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I read the above-mentioned two post and found them very interesting. Logical thinking is ok with me. Seems I've read just as much pro, as con, about the history of ninjitsu and really am starting to believe that the history is somewhat like Zen Buddhism. I can neither prove or dis-prove what the both you explained in your post. I wouldn't have any idea where the Kanji for nin jit su was first noted. I do have a personal sense that the systems actually may have developed first in China and not in Japan if I were to seriously look into the history.

That being said. Those I train with do not consider themselves Ninja or Shinobi. Can't speak for the Ryu, however, I get a sense that some using the term Ninjitsu, use the term only in a general sense that the word refers to a state of mind or a spiritual attitude to be incorporated into our actions.

For the sake of argument, lets say that your version is the truth. Lets say someone bought into the WWII fictions. Lets say that we took the myths seriously. Lets say we then re-invented a martial arts science from these myths. Lets say the resulting science actually works well and is very effective. Lets say that we then label this myth: Ninjitsu. Now then, what is the problem?

sojobow · 01-30-2004, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uber_Tap

Sid_Vicious has at this point at least posted sources that he feels support the theory that Dux is fake, where as I haven't seen any postings from the supporters that help to validate his claims(the world records come to mind). I have no vested interest in either arguement, but I am very curious to see if his allies have any references that can validate his claims. Please post any non-biased refrences from third party sources you may have, I would be very interested to read them.

Took me a while to get to this post. don't think i can help you out as i haven't "any non-biased refrences from third party sources."

sherwinc · 01-31-2004, 08:45 PM

SOJOBOW

Then why is it there are many schools in NinJutSo like Maasakit HatSumi ( a Ninja Instructor), another? Master Stephen Hayes ( also a Ninja Instructor), another? Sho Kusugi ( another Ninja Instructor )

even thou in book of Encyclopedia, the meaning of NinJa is the Art of Invisibility.

CONVINCED????????

Half-Asleep · 02-01-2004, 08:49 AM

...yeah 3 ppl thats HUGE man u must be right :P

and if they didn't teach the art how would it be passed on lol, i don't think its exactly meant to be as secretive now ya know the lack of japanese emperors trying to kill them and the such (if they existed i know ppl will flame me if i don't say it lol)

adacas · 02-01-2004, 06:15 PM

Ninjas are like pimps. they walk around late at night in their pajamas and throw powder into peoples faces. Ninjas have been around since before the whole no sex geisha came around so they must have been pimps at first and then switched to assassinating and sneaking around and what not when geisha girls changed their image.

jk

Hikage · 02-03-2004, 10:26 PM

Ok, here’s the scoop. I’m a French/Spanish teacher and I was off school today because of the snow on the eastern coast of the states. Having nothing else to do, I took my first visit to this site and immediately was drawn to the Ninjitsu forum, being a practitioner myself. When I first starting reading, I thought pridefully, “here’s a thread to which I might be able to add something.” I then realized that there were 72 responses to the simple question “What is Ninjitsu.” I figured, surely, someone out of those 72 responses will have answered the question. I must admit, to my dismay, I have not yet seen that response. Some of you obviously know what your are talking about and I appreciate your defense of the art. Others are simply trying to elevate their own egos by saying a whole lot of nothing in a great deal of words. As martial artists, we should help those who are starting out, because someone helped us when we started out. When someone asks for help in starting in the arts, that should not be used as an occasion to pontificate. I apologize to the original starter of this thread. Please allow me to build on what they have said and hopefully answer this evidently elusive question.
Allow me to start by telling you what Ninjitsu is not. Ninjitsu is not the art of killing people, the art of flying, the art of magic, the art of anything that is not founded in truth, realism, and believe it or not, science. I get so tired of people telling me that Ninjitsu is so “spiritual.” Blah. When you are forced to talk spiritually on a basic question, that just tells me that you don’t know what you are talking about and you need to fluff up what you are saying to make yourself sound intelligent. Quit trying to talk a good fight and get out there and learn how to make one. Sure, Ninjitsu has its spiritual aspects to it. But here’s the thing, no Ninjitsu practitioner will ever see those techniques before the master level. That’s what makes the difference between a master and a high ranking black belt.
Of these masters, every master of Ninjitsu will be able to tell you about the core of Ninjitsu, the kihon happo. If someone says that they know Ninjitsu and can you nothing about kihon happo, walk away from them because they do not know what they are talking about. Kihon happo means foundation or fundamentals of eight. These are eight techniques which form the backbone of Ninjitsu. From the first class until the death of the practitioner, every Ninjitsu technique is an offshoot or variation of these eight.
From here, the techniques of Ninjitsu also reflect all five of the godai, or elements. There is wind, fire, water, earth, and void. The kihon happo all reflect these godai. The master practitioner will be able to mix the elements, represented by void. Many arts only practice one or two of the godai. For example, the symbol of Shoto Kan is the tiger and represents fire and earth as their techniques are feriocious, strong and grounded. There is nothing wrong with that and I have nothing against those who practice shoto kan. However, they miss out on how to be elusive as wind and how to deal with energy as one would in water. Life happens in circles, one must complete the circle by studying both sides.
All that being said, there is still one thing in need of mentioning. Nokozushi. This is the study of angles, balance, and circles. One can control their opponent if they control their balance. The Ninjitsu student will study how to off balance their opponent at the same time as maintaining their own balance. It is important that every student knows balance inside and out as you cannot progress in Ninjitsu without a thorough understanding of balance.
Please, take notice once again of what I have not mentioned here. I’m not trying to muddy waters here by telling you fluff. I have not yet mentioned weapons, stealth, etc. a or how they are incorporated into the system. It is important to understand that the fundamentals of the art are crucial because weapons and the like are merely an extension of the fundamentals. For example, you can do you same exact techniques with your hands as you can with a sword.
In conclusion, it is important to understand that each and every person who practices Ninjitsu will do so differently. A big man cannot move as a small man moves, and the differences between men and women MUST be recognized. Some people will excel in taihenjitsu (body movement {wind]) while others will grapple very well (earth). Overall, no instructor in ninjitsu will ever tell you that you can win on muscle alone, that you must you use your body as one – ken tai ichi jo. I hope this answers the question first asked 72 threads ago and I apologize that I need to keep things so basic.
I formally request that you respect my art, as I do yours, and if you do not know what you are talking about, please do not show me or any other practitioners further disrespect by misrepresenting us.

If you have further questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

-Hikage

sojobow · 02-04-2004, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sherwinc

SOJOBOW

Then why is it there are many schools in NinJutSo ..........even thou in book of Encyclopedia, the meaning of NinJa is the Art of Invisibility.

CONVINCED????????

Not quite sure of the point you are after. Welcomed to explain further. Some of us may define Invisibility different than you are thinking. You need to help me out with what you are actually trying to say.

On the Spiritual aspects of the art, there are quite a few definitions of the term Spiritual. I've seen dictionaries having from 4 to 12 different definitions. Picking the wrong one causes confusion.

masterdan · 02-04-2004, 11:44 AM

Ninjas most definatly exist! I just bought a book by Dr. Haha Lung, and it tells and teaches the art of the shadow hand.

m.artist · 02-04-2004, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hikage

Ok, here’s the scoop. I’m a French/Spanish teacher and I was off school today because of the snow on the eastern coast of the states. Having nothing else to do, I took my first visit to this site and immediately was drawn to the Ninjitsu forum, being a practitioner myself. When I first starting reading, I thought pridefully, “here’s a thread to which I might be able to add something.” I then realized that there were 72 responses to the simple question “What is Ninjitsu.” I figured, surely, someone out of those 72 responses will have answered the question. I must admit, to my dismay, I have not yet seen that response. Some of you obviously know what your are talking about and I appreciate your defense of the art. Others are simply trying to elevate their own egos by saying a whole lot of nothing in a great deal of words. As martial artists, we should help those who are starting out, because someone helped us when we started out. When someone asks for help in starting in the arts, that should not be used as an occasion to pontificate. I apologize to the original starter of this thread. Please allow me to build on what they have said and hopefully answer this evidently elusive question.
Allow me to start by telling you what Ninjitsu is not. Ninjitsu is not the art of killing people, the art of flying, the art of magic, the art of anything that is not founded in truth, realism, and believe it or not, science. I get so tired of people telling me that Ninjitsu is so “spiritual.” Blah. When you are forced to talk spiritually on a basic question, that just tells me that you don’t know what you are talking about and you need to fluff up what you are saying to make yourself sound intelligent. Quit trying to talk a good fight and get out there and learn how to make one. Sure, Ninjitsu has its spiritual aspects to it. But here’s the thing, no Ninjitsu practitioner will ever see those techniques before the master level. That’s what makes the difference between a master and a high ranking black belt.
Of these masters, every master of Ninjitsu will be able to tell you about the core of Ninjitsu, the kihon happo. If someone says that they know Ninjitsu and can you nothing about kihon happo, walk away from them because they do not know what they are talking about. Kihon happo means foundation or fundamentals of eight. These are eight techniques which form the backbone of Ninjitsu. From the first class until the death of the practitioner, every Ninjitsu technique is an offshoot or variation of these eight.
From here, the techniques of Ninjitsu also reflect all five of the godai, or elements. There is wind, fire, water, earth, and void. The kihon happo all reflect these godai. The master practitioner will be able to mix the elements, represented by void. Many arts only practice one or two of the godai. For example, the symbol of Shoto Kan is the tiger and represents fire and earth as their techniques are feriocious, strong and grounded. There is nothing wrong with that and I have nothing against those who practice shoto kan. However, they miss out on how to be elusive as wind and how to deal with energy as one would in water. Life happens in circles, one must complete the circle by studying both sides.
All that being said, there is still one thing in need of mentioning. Nokozushi. This is the study of angles, balance, and circles. One can control their opponent if they control their balance. The Ninjitsu student will study how to off balance their opponent at the same time as maintaining their own balance. It is important that every student knows balance inside and out as you cannot progress in Ninjitsu without a thorough understanding of balance.
Please, take notice once again of what I have not mentioned here. I’m not trying to muddy waters here by telling you fluff. I have not yet mentioned weapons, stealth, etc. a or how they are incorporated into the system. It is important to understand that the fundamentals of the art are crucial because weapons and the like are merely an extension of the fundamentals. For example, you can do you same exact techniques with your hands as you can with a sword.
In conclusion, it is important to understand that each and every person who practices Ninjitsu will do so differently. A big man cannot move as a small man moves, and the differences between men and women MUST be recognized. Some people will excel in taihenjitsu (body movement {wind]) while others will grapple very well (earth). Overall, no instructor in ninjitsu will ever tell you that you can win on muscle alone, that you must you use your body as one – ken tai ichi jo. I hope this answers the question first asked 72 threads ago and I apologize that I need to keep things so basic.
I formally request that you respect my art, as I do yours, and if you do not know what you are talking about, please do not show me or any other practitioners further disrespect by misrepresenting us.

If you have further questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

-Hikage

you are a true martial artist. and if i could, i would love to learn from you. but im pretty sure you don't live in wichita falls tx

02-01-2004, 08:49 AM	#70 (permalink)
Half-Asleep Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 88 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	...yeah 3 ppl thats HUGE man u must be right :P and if they didn't teach the art how would it be passed on lol, i don't think its exactly meant to be as secretive now ya know the lack of japanese emperors trying to kill them and the such (if they existed i know ppl will flame me if i don't say it lol) __________________ "Knowing is not enough, we must apply. Willing is not enough, we must do" Bruce Lee

02-01-2004, 06:15 PM	#71 (permalink)
adacas Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Fresno, Ca Posts: 563 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ninjas are like pimps. they walk around late at night in their pajamas and throw powder into peoples faces. Ninjas have been around since before the whole no sex geisha came around so they must have been pimps at first and then switched to assassinating and sneaking around and what not when geisha girls changed their image. jk __________________ Estalilla Kabaroan

02-03-2004, 10:26 PM	#72 (permalink)
Hikage Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Southern PA Posts: 550 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Answer to "What it ninjitsu." Ok, here’s the scoop. I’m a French/Spanish teacher and I was off school today because of the snow on the eastern coast of the states. Having nothing else to do, I took my first visit to this site and immediately was drawn to the Ninjitsu forum, being a practitioner myself. When I first starting reading, I thought pridefully, “here’s a thread to which I might be able to add something.” I then realized that there were 72 responses to the simple question “What is Ninjitsu.” I figured, surely, someone out of those 72 responses will have answered the question. I must admit, to my dismay, I have not yet seen that response. Some of you obviously know what your are talking about and I appreciate your defense of the art. Others are simply trying to elevate their own egos by saying a whole lot of nothing in a great deal of words. As martial artists, we should help those who are starting out, because someone helped us when we started out. When someone asks for help in starting in the arts, that should not be used as an occasion to pontificate. I apologize to the original starter of this thread. Please allow me to build on what they have said and hopefully answer this evidently elusive question. Allow me to start by telling you what Ninjitsu is not. Ninjitsu is not the art of killing people, the art of flying, the art of magic, the art of anything that is not founded in truth, realism, and believe it or not, science. I get so tired of people telling me that Ninjitsu is so “spiritual.” Blah. When you are forced to talk spiritually on a basic question, that just tells me that you don’t know what you are talking about and you need to fluff up what you are saying to make yourself sound intelligent. Quit trying to talk a good fight and get out there and learn how to make one. Sure, Ninjitsu has its spiritual aspects to it. But here’s the thing, no Ninjitsu practitioner will ever see those techniques before the master level. That’s what makes the difference between a master and a high ranking black belt. Of these masters, every master of Ninjitsu will be able to tell you about the core of Ninjitsu, the kihon happo. If someone says that they know Ninjitsu and can you nothing about kihon happo, walk away from them because they do not know what they are talking about. Kihon happo means foundation or fundamentals of eight. These are eight techniques which form the backbone of Ninjitsu. From the first class until the death of the practitioner, every Ninjitsu technique is an offshoot or variation of these eight. From here, the techniques of Ninjitsu also reflect all five of the godai, or elements. There is wind, fire, water, earth, and void. The kihon happo all reflect these godai. The master practitioner will be able to mix the elements, represented by void. Many arts only practice one or two of the godai. For example, the symbol of Shoto Kan is the tiger and represents fire and earth as their techniques are feriocious, strong and grounded. There is nothing wrong with that and I have nothing against those who practice shoto kan. However, they miss out on how to be elusive as wind and how to deal with energy as one would in water. Life happens in circles, one must complete the circle by studying both sides. All that being said, there is still one thing in need of mentioning. Nokozushi. This is the study of angles, balance, and circles. One can control their opponent if they control their balance. The Ninjitsu student will study how to off balance their opponent at the same time as maintaining their own balance. It is important that every student knows balance inside and out as you cannot progress in Ninjitsu without a thorough understanding of balance. Please, take notice once again of what I have not mentioned here. I’m not trying to muddy waters here by telling you fluff. I have not yet mentioned weapons, stealth, etc. a or how they are incorporated into the system. It is important to understand that the fundamentals of the art are crucial because weapons and the like are merely an extension of the fundamentals. For example, you can do you same exact techniques with your hands as you can with a sword. In conclusion, it is important to understand that each and every person who practices Ninjitsu will do so differently. A big man cannot move as a small man moves, and the differences between men and women MUST be recognized. Some people will excel in taihenjitsu (body movement {wind]) while others will grapple very well (earth). Overall, no instructor in ninjitsu will ever tell you that you can win on muscle alone, that you must you use your body as one – ken tai ichi jo. I hope this answers the question first asked 72 threads ago and I apologize that I need to keep things so basic. I formally request that you respect my art, as I do yours, and if you do not know what you are talking about, please do not show me or any other practitioners further disrespect by misrepresenting us. If you have further questions, please don't hesitate to ask. -Hikage

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01-25-2004, 01:23 AM	#63 (permalink)
Uber_Tap Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 142 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Sid_Vicious has at this point at least posted sources that he feels support the theory that Dux is fake, where as I haven't seen any postings from the supporters that help to validate his claims(the world records come to mind). I have no vested interest in either arguement, but I am very curious to see if his allies have any references that can validate his claims. Please post any non-biased refrences from third party sources you may have, I would be very interested to read them.

01-30-2004, 02:41 AM	#67 (permalink)
sojobow Registered User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 153 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	[QUOTE=RobertG. [/QUOTE] RobertG 09-26-2003, 04:25 PM #6 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok for the Nth time---there is no ninjitsu. Get it through your heads people, it is a fabrication of storytellers during the Tokugawa era in Japan for mass entertainment. 10-01-2003, 05:37 AM #20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Stupid **** eh? All right grubby lets break this down for you again. Joo Bang Lee was teaching Hapkido is Korea -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I read the above-mentioned two post and found them very interesting. Logical thinking is ok with me. Seems I've read just as much pro, as con, about the history of ninjitsu and really am starting to believe that the history is somewhat like Zen Buddhism. I can neither prove or dis-prove what the both you explained in your post. I wouldn't have any idea where the Kanji for nin jit su was first noted. I do have a personal sense that the systems actually may have developed first in China and not in Japan if I were to seriously look into the history. That being said. Those I train with do not consider themselves Ninja or Shinobi. Can't speak for the Ryu, however, I get a sense that some using the term Ninjitsu, use the term only in a general sense that the word refers to a state of mind or a spiritual attitude to be incorporated into our actions. For the sake of argument, lets say that your version is the truth. Lets say someone bought into the WWII fictions. Lets say that we took the myths seriously. Lets say we then re-invented a martial arts science from these myths. Lets say the resulting science actually works well and is very effective. Lets say that we then label this myth: Ninjitsu. Now then, what is the problem?

01-31-2004, 08:45 PM	#69 (permalink)
sherwinc Registered User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Iloilo City, Philippines Posts: 1,127 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	SOJOBOW Then why is it there are many schools in NinJutSo like Maasakit HatSumi ( a Ninja Instructor), another? Master Stephen Hayes ( also a Ninja Instructor), another? Sho Kusugi ( another Ninja Instructor ) even thou in book of Encyclopedia, the meaning of NinJa is the Art of Invisibility. CONVINCED????????

02-04-2004, 11:44 AM	#74 (permalink)
masterdan Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 66 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ninjas most definatly exist! I just bought a book by Dr. Haha Lung, and it tells and teaches the art of the shadow hand.

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