Creation or Evolution? - Page 2

eXcessiveForce · 02-11-2004, 08:35 AM

Just to point out, That they never really found life from space. They found orgainic compounds and said it was and organism. Later after study by others it turned out just to be organic compounds that can be created by having the proper building blocks and radiation.

Let me state this again a little more clearly. Evolution is not a FACT, it is not a LAW, it is a theory. I theory is only a belief that tries to explain something that occurs.

Science is only a philosphy. It is a belief system that relies heavily on empirical knowledge and the ability to reproduce results.

To date there has never been any proof of evolution. That is why Lucy (a face monkey human) was such a big deal because it was "the missing link" And until the man confessed on his death bed that it was a hoax many scientists were fooled. By a skeleton comprised of a few bones from different creatures and some pigs teeth.

I am not really concerned what your High School teacher told you. If they say that evolution is a fact they are incorrect. Even in college you may run into a professor or two that say it's fact but they are also incorrect. Why, because it's not a fact it's a theory.

Adaptation has little to do with evolution really. To evolve something must change from one thing to something else. like an apple becomes an orange. Not a washington apple becomes a golden delicious apple.

Organisms adapt but so far no proof that they evolve. Sickle cell anemia is an adaptation to malaria, People who have it have not evolved they are not different kinds of animals they are people with a different trait.

Science will always try to prove evolution but in so doing it breaks the principles of science. This being to observe empirically and then test, finally to reproduce the results. As soon as someone tries to prove or disprove a theory they are approaching it with a personal bias towards the outcome. That is not science.

IPON · 02-11-2004, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eXcessiveForce

Evolution is not a FACT, it is not a LAW, it is a theory. I theory is only a belief that tries to explain something that occurs.

Science is only a philosphy. It is a belief system that relies heavily on empirical knowledge and the ability to reproduce results.

To date there has never been any proof of evolution.

Even in college you may run into a professor or two that say it's fact but they are also incorrect. Why, because it's not a fact it's a theory.

Agreed. I know it was just an organism, my point was just the response to the possibility of life beyond earth was verry interesting. My thought is just when you look at positivism and empiricism it is one thing to say we don'yt understand but completely different to say "impossible" becuase something has not been defined.

Hmm ... I actually think I am getting off topic but I just thought mention this.

eXcessiveForce · 02-11-2004, 09:12 AM

Even from a creationist view. It seems the universe is pretty vast to be just for us on one little planet. And to make galaxies so far away that we can never hope to get to them kind of makes you think that what is the point of doing all that just for us.

I don't have a problem with the idea of life in space. I don't think that they come visit us. Face it if you have ships that can do that earth would be pretty dull.

People assume that if their are aliens that they would be interested in us. That is just the same egoism that drives people to think that everyone talks about them when they are gone.

IPON · 02-11-2004, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eXcessiveForce

Face it if you have ships that can do that earth would be pretty dull.

LOL to true it would be the eqivalent of an ant farm

bvermillion · 02-11-2004, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sherwinc

I really do believe that there are other Civilizations/Aliens or other planet/s withing our galaxy (dead/present/newlyborn living planets)

now, do you believe that there are aliens?????

if yes.... then, it is also a God's Image?????

if not.... then, there might be other gods who created them to their own images???????

This doesn't surprise me at all. Looks who it is coming from. I wouldn't doubt it if sherwinc was one of these aliens.

huey · 02-25-2004, 05:26 AM

a few years ago a team of scientists in switzerland did dna testing on a frozen cadavore that was supposed to be a cromagnum man. they surmised that in no way wa it possible for that specimen to have been able to reproduce with the female dna present in humans. the dna of a chimpanzee is supposed to be pretty close to a humans dna and there is also no chance of interspecies reproduction between them and humans so i cannot support the theory of evolution in this scheme. a couple of studies were done over a hundred years ago and then again five years ago. one on the land in america and another on the dimensions of the human anatomy specifically the brain. what was found on the soil study is that only a fraction of the nutrients found on the first were present today. the findings on the second were that the brain weight and overall size of the brains were much smaller in humans today. i bring this up because i feel that in some ways we are de- evolving as a result of resource depletion and tampering with the natural order of things. on another note scientists tried unsuccesfully to accomplish the smallest synthesis in the protein that had been widely accepted as the building block to human development. recreating all the environmental statistics felt were around in the beginning of time on earth they concluded that even with ten times the amount of time they believed it took to do this through nature they could not make it work.
darwin kept getting head aches trying to figure out in his mind how the human eye could have been developed. he told his friends that he just couldn't do it. the intricacies of the human eye stumped him. personally i don't care how they could have been made through nature because i have a firm belief that god created the chess board (kudos).
life on other planets? who is to say that god couldn't have a million chess games going at the same time? the vatican?if god wanted to start life on earth and say that life was only started here at that time then it was. but what about 12 hours later? a day is to a thousand years as a thousand years is to a day. that's 500 years later he takes a quick step over to alpha centauri and starts over knowing what we are going to do to our world before we even did it.why are those planets in the universe? when they were created people didn't have a way of viewing them for their beauty. they are too far away to have any direct influence on us. how many stars in the sky (if you can see them through the pollution) are there? and how many have satellites following them? how many of those can support life? who really knows but the possibility is definately there.
just look at the planets in our solar system. i don't know exactly how far away mercury is from the sun but science tells us that the sun has a huge magnetic pull which along with the pull of our planet keeps us all in line and circling around it but how much power does mercury have not to be pulled into the sun? i have a hard time believing that it is from a big bang without GOD to keep everything in its proper place. the earths magnetic field has dropped in the last fifty years to a point that hasn't happend in a very long time. supposedly when the ice age took place which renewed the field until now. some have speculated that it is because of a growing electro magnetic field inside the earths magnetic field that has caused this, but i don't know if i believe that for certain but we do have a lot of power poles around the world.

pstevens · 02-25-2004, 10:50 AM

Hmm... Interesting topic (although I've run across it a billion times). I was a philosophy minor with classes in theology and existentialism under my belt, so maybe I can spark a good debate or conversation...

REGARDING EVOLUTON
To my knowledge, the only evolution that has been proven is micro-evolution. The theory of Evolution DOES NOT state that man came from monkeys... Rather, it believes that man and monkeys descended from a common ancestor. Whether that is true remains to be seen. However, there are many archeological suggestions there was an evolutionary process in our development... Whether that is entirely true, remains to be seen.

REGARDING CREATION
Does God exist? To be objective, one must think in human terms and be logical. First, the Bible was written by men and until proven otherwise, that's how I will address it. Personally, I do not buy into the Bible, because it has more holes than the theory of Evolution and Santa Claus combined... But we can argue that later if you really want to.

The main idea I'd like to address is God. For this, I've picked the minds of some really intelligent people (rather read some really good books and essays)... Not resorting to any doctrines, my conclusion and that of many intellects is this:

1) The Universe is inconceivable
2) Man is limited to his experience as a human being
3) Therefore, whatever idea Man conjures up regarding the Universe is a misinterpretation of the true nature of the Universe.

Truth is only relevent to man's experience as a human being. Since God is a conceivable idea that Man has been contemplating for centuries, is God merely Man's own idea of Truth and NOT Truth itself? That's the real question.

Toudiyama[NL] · 02-26-2004, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sherwinc

I really do believe that there are other Civilizations/Aliens or other planet/s withing our galaxy (dead/present/newlyborn living planets)

now, do you believe that there are aliens?????

if yes.... then, it is also a God's Image?????

if not.... then, there might be other gods who created them to their own images???????

Well doesn't the Bible state you shall not worship OTHER gods? so it doesn't say there is one God, just that that one god is suppreme to others

One of the arguments against the Big Bang is the question, But what was there before that? One could just as well ask the creationist But who or what created God?

Akso young christians are taught to reply: Were you there? is someone states Dinos lived miljon years ago, but this could just as well be replied on anything in the Bible

If a God started live on earth, I think it was meant as a game, an experiment not unlike the antfarm at school

Science is great but they lost me on the quantum theory
Ah well I only understood the reletivity theory some 10 years ago ( am 42 now) before I took it as is, I didn't know what it implied and how time couuld be relative only when the used a math quadrant to show it, became it clear

It's nice the creation helps people giving purpose to a life of senseless work and procreating (spelling?) but I rather give my live real purpose and help others, I managed to get a job wherre I do so and are apreciated for it
That's the purpose I gave my life, gain as much knowledge and skills and help others with it

Oh If you believe in a God that just started life on earth and left it to evolve, couldn't god be aliens that just visited earth but weren't sterile and left single cel organisms

Bjjexpertise@be · 02-26-2004, 08:28 AM

Quote:

One of the arguments against the Big Bang is the question, But what was there before that? One could just as well ask the creationist But who or what created God?

In answer to your question "what was there before that?", people believe (more like Steven Hawkings) that there was energy compressed into the size of a pea. The energy was disrupted and big explosion occurs. That was the Big Bang.
And I believe that a creationist believes that God was always there and he wasn't created.

pstevens · 02-26-2004, 09:43 AM

Unfortunately, the beginning of creation is an unknown... In the case of science, one can easily argue what caused a pea of energy to form...And with creationists, who created God? Merely saying God simply exists isn't a reliable answer, since God is a mechanism of cause and effect... What caused God?

That is why my point is that the Universe is inconceivable. Thus, whatever conceivable idea Man has is only relative to his existence... If such a god exists and communicates with Man, it would be impossible to distinguish between inherent thoughts and divinity. How does a Man know God's will from his own?

Besides, if one acknowledges that God exists, he also opens to the door to the existence of other gods, creatures, etc... Since none can be disproven or proven more real than the other. For God says, "...worship no other god but me" an implication that suggests other gods must exist as well.

Toudiyama[NL] · 02-26-2004, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bjjexpertise@be

In answer to your question "what was there before that?", people believe (more like Steven Hawkings) that there was energy compressed into the size of a pea. The energy was disrupted and big explosion occurs. That was the Big Bang.
And I believe that a creationist believes that God was always there and he wasn't created.

It wasn't the size of a pea because size wasn't there yet, it was just pure energy without a state ( a state would be radiation or pressure)
Oh and there was no "before" since there was no time yet, time came into excistance after the Big Bang (String theory?)

Lizard · 02-26-2004, 01:36 PM

[quote=eXcessiveForce]there is no proof for evolution either.
Why hasn't anything else evovled since we started looking for it. Evolution says that something changed from on thing to another. A fish became a lizard and such. We have no evidence of this and have never observed it.
QUOTE]

The proof for evidence lies in logic:

Individuals have different genes
Different genes might give different chances of survival (eg an animal with fur has an advantage in a cold climate)
These differences are passed on to their offspring

Even if we assume that all the fossils of dinosaurs are either fake or part of gods cruel joke,

There are two examples I will give you:

You treat an infection with antibiotics. Mutant micro-organisms that are not killed by antibiotics have no competition and reprodce until the population reaches a stable size again. This is evolution, the organisms in question have adapted.

Do you beleive that dogs can be bred to have different characteristics? Its the same as evolution but with humans deciding who breeds instead of the more random process of natural selection.

Hence anyone who does not beleive in evolution is either missing the logical regions of their brain, or just hasnt had it properly explained. The bible was written by fallable humans just like all your other bullshit religious texts.

Lizard · 02-26-2004, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HandtoHand

I dont want to bother prooving that evolution in an actual process, but i will briefly. Look at how the blacks are black for a sunny climate in africa, look at how the the Europeans who wore more clothes against the cold weather were more pretected against the sun and thus developed a lighter skin pigment.

The only thing is science has yet to create a living organism, we can alter them, make them reporduce, harvest them, but we cant take nonliving things and make something living. This is what leads me to say that i belive in a combination of the two, as adacas said; god set the chess board.

Oooo sorry mate but your slightly misunderstanding.

People dont change skin colour for no reason, the lighter skin is essentialy to allow more vitamin D synthesis... but your on the right track.

Id also like to make the point that it IS possible that evolution doesnt exist... but it means that god is evil and planted fossils to mislead us so wed fight each other instead of uniting against him...

Bjjexpertise@be · 02-26-2004, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Id also like to make the point that it IS possible that evolution doesnt exist... but it means that god is evil and planted fossils to mislead us so wed fight each other instead of uniting against him...

So then if evolution didn't exist there could be a possibility that God isn't what we think of him as. We think he is an ever loving God, to an extent that is true. So if evloution were proven false then your statement would be thrown into the chessboard as well and it will get even more f*cked up.

Bjjexpertise@be · 02-26-2004, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Unfortunately, the beginning of creation is an unknown... In the case of science, one can easily argue what caused a pea of energy to form...And with creationists, who created God? Merely saying God simply exists isn't a reliable answer, since God is a mechanism of cause and effect... What caused God?

Here's another statement i would like to make. If you were in a discussion with someone and you told them you supported evolution, they automatically assume you're atheist. Not all evolutionists are atheists now. You asked what cause the energy to form, maybe God put it there.

02-11-2004, 08:35 AM	#16 (permalink)
eXcessiveForce Excessive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Missouri Posts: 2,906 Groans: 0 Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post	Just to point out, That they never really found life from space. They found orgainic compounds and said it was and organism. Later after study by others it turned out just to be organic compounds that can be created by having the proper building blocks and radiation. Let me state this again a little more clearly. Evolution is not a FACT, it is not a LAW, it is a theory. I theory is only a belief that tries to explain something that occurs. Science is only a philosphy. It is a belief system that relies heavily on empirical knowledge and the ability to reproduce results. To date there has never been any proof of evolution. That is why Lucy (a face monkey human) was such a big deal because it was "the missing link" And until the man confessed on his death bed that it was a hoax many scientists were fooled. By a skeleton comprised of a few bones from different creatures and some pigs teeth. I am not really concerned what your High School teacher told you. If they say that evolution is a fact they are incorrect. Even in college you may run into a professor or two that say it's fact but they are also incorrect. Why, because it's not a fact it's a theory. Adaptation has little to do with evolution really. To evolve something must change from one thing to something else. like an apple becomes an orange. Not a washington apple becomes a golden delicious apple. Organisms adapt but so far no proof that they evolve. Sickle cell anemia is an adaptation to malaria, People who have it have not evolved they are not different kinds of animals they are people with a different trait. Science will always try to prove evolution but in so doing it breaks the principles of science. This being to observe empirically and then test, finally to reproduce the results. As soon as someone tries to prove or disprove a theory they are approaching it with a personal bias towards the outcome. That is not science. __________________ eXcessiveFORCE. If you must use force, make it excessive. www.b-prime.com A success and achievement community

02-11-2004, 09:12 AM	#18 (permalink)
eXcessiveForce Excessive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Missouri Posts: 2,906 Groans: 0 Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post	Even from a creationist view. It seems the universe is pretty vast to be just for us on one little planet. And to make galaxies so far away that we can never hope to get to them kind of makes you think that what is the point of doing all that just for us. I don't have a problem with the idea of life in space. I don't think that they come visit us. Face it if you have ships that can do that earth would be pretty dull. People assume that if their are aliens that they would be interested in us. That is just the same egoism that drives people to think that everyone talks about them when they are gone. __________________ eXcessiveFORCE. If you must use force, make it excessive. www.b-prime.com A success and achievement community

02-26-2004, 01:36 PM	#27 (permalink)
Lizard Registered User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 985 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	[quote=eXcessiveForce]there is no proof for evolution either. Why hasn't anything else evovled since we started looking for it. Evolution says that something changed from on thing to another. A fish became a lizard and such. We have no evidence of this and have never observed it. QUOTE] The proof for evidence lies in logic: Individuals have different genes Different genes might give different chances of survival (eg an animal with fur has an advantage in a cold climate) These differences are passed on to their offspring Even if we assume that all the fossils of dinosaurs are either fake or part of gods cruel joke, There are two examples I will give you: You treat an infection with antibiotics. Mutant micro-organisms that are not killed by antibiotics have no competition and reprodce until the population reaches a stable size again. This is evolution, the organisms in question have adapted. Do you beleive that dogs can be bred to have different characteristics? Its the same as evolution but with humans deciding who breeds instead of the more random process of natural selection. Hence anyone who does not beleive in evolution is either missing the logical regions of their brain, or just hasnt had it properly explained. The bible was written by fallable humans just like all your other bullshit religious texts. __________________ Enemies Strengthen, Allies weaken.

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02-25-2004, 05:26 AM	#21 (permalink)
huey Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: central california Posts: 97 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	a few years ago a team of scientists in switzerland did dna testing on a frozen cadavore that was supposed to be a cromagnum man. they surmised that in no way wa it possible for that specimen to have been able to reproduce with the female dna present in humans. the dna of a chimpanzee is supposed to be pretty close to a humans dna and there is also no chance of interspecies reproduction between them and humans so i cannot support the theory of evolution in this scheme. a couple of studies were done over a hundred years ago and then again five years ago. one on the land in america and another on the dimensions of the human anatomy specifically the brain. what was found on the soil study is that only a fraction of the nutrients found on the first were present today. the findings on the second were that the brain weight and overall size of the brains were much smaller in humans today. i bring this up because i feel that in some ways we are de- evolving as a result of resource depletion and tampering with the natural order of things. on another note scientists tried unsuccesfully to accomplish the smallest synthesis in the protein that had been widely accepted as the building block to human development. recreating all the environmental statistics felt were around in the beginning of time on earth they concluded that even with ten times the amount of time they believed it took to do this through nature they could not make it work. darwin kept getting head aches trying to figure out in his mind how the human eye could have been developed. he told his friends that he just couldn't do it. the intricacies of the human eye stumped him. personally i don't care how they could have been made through nature because i have a firm belief that god created the chess board (kudos). life on other planets? who is to say that god couldn't have a million chess games going at the same time? the vatican?if god wanted to start life on earth and say that life was only started here at that time then it was. but what about 12 hours later? a day is to a thousand years as a thousand years is to a day. that's 500 years later he takes a quick step over to alpha centauri and starts over knowing what we are going to do to our world before we even did it.why are those planets in the universe? when they were created people didn't have a way of viewing them for their beauty. they are too far away to have any direct influence on us. how many stars in the sky (if you can see them through the pollution) are there? and how many have satellites following them? how many of those can support life? who really knows but the possibility is definately there. just look at the planets in our solar system. i don't know exactly how far away mercury is from the sun but science tells us that the sun has a huge magnetic pull which along with the pull of our planet keeps us all in line and circling around it but how much power does mercury have not to be pulled into the sun? i have a hard time believing that it is from a big bang without GOD to keep everything in its proper place. the earths magnetic field has dropped in the last fifty years to a point that hasn't happend in a very long time. supposedly when the ice age took place which renewed the field until now. some have speculated that it is because of a growing electro magnetic field inside the earths magnetic field that has caused this, but i don't know if i believe that for certain but we do have a lot of power poles around the world.

02-25-2004, 10:50 AM	#22 (permalink)
pstevens Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 333 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hmm... Interesting topic (although I've run across it a billion times). I was a philosophy minor with classes in theology and existentialism under my belt, so maybe I can spark a good debate or conversation... REGARDING EVOLUTON To my knowledge, the only evolution that has been proven is micro-evolution. The theory of Evolution DOES NOT state that man came from monkeys... Rather, it believes that man and monkeys descended from a common ancestor. Whether that is true remains to be seen. However, there are many archeological suggestions there was an evolutionary process in our development... Whether that is entirely true, remains to be seen. REGARDING CREATION Does God exist? To be objective, one must think in human terms and be logical. First, the Bible was written by men and until proven otherwise, that's how I will address it. Personally, I do not buy into the Bible, because it has more holes than the theory of Evolution and Santa Claus combined... But we can argue that later if you really want to. The main idea I'd like to address is God. For this, I've picked the minds of some really intelligent people (rather read some really good books and essays)... Not resorting to any doctrines, my conclusion and that of many intellects is this: 1) The Universe is inconceivable 2) Man is limited to his experience as a human being 3) Therefore, whatever idea Man conjures up regarding the Universe is a misinterpretation of the true nature of the Universe. Truth is only relevent to man's experience as a human being. Since God is a conceivable idea that Man has been contemplating for centuries, is God merely Man's own idea of Truth and NOT Truth itself? That's the real question.

02-26-2004, 09:43 AM	#25 (permalink)
pstevens Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 333 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Unfortunately, the beginning of creation is an unknown... In the case of science, one can easily argue what caused a pea of energy to form...And with creationists, who created God? Merely saying God simply exists isn't a reliable answer, since God is a mechanism of cause and effect... What caused God? That is why my point is that the Universe is inconceivable. Thus, whatever conceivable idea Man has is only relative to his existence... If such a god exists and communicates with Man, it would be impossible to distinguish between inherent thoughts and divinity. How does a Man know God's will from his own? Besides, if one acknowledges that God exists, he also opens to the door to the existence of other gods, creatures, etc... Since none can be disproven or proven more real than the other. For God says, "...worship no other god but me" an implication that suggests other gods must exist as well.

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