adacas

I like the whole being descended from great apes thing because then I have an excuse for why i am such a hairy bastard. anyways the only problem with the bible I have is the lack of date keeping. I mean comeon. At least the last testament could have some dates to go with it. If the writers were educated enough to know how to write why couldn't they date it? I know they only wrote enough to get their point across and say what they felt needed saying but comeon throw me a fricken bone here. The bible has to be some of the best reading anyone can do. I mean it has everything from religion to sex to alcohol to deceit to group sodomy. a whole room full of Steven Kings couldn't beat that.

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Bjjexpertise@be

The thing about the bible is that it has been rewritten so many times that what the text says now isn't what the original writers were trying to say.

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pstevens

You've missed the point... If God caused energy to form, what caused God? Trivializing doesn't make it true. Hence, I pointed out that the true nature of the Universe is inconceivable because man is limited to his experience as a human being. Therefore, when Man studies the Universe, whatever truths he discovers is relative ONLY to his existence.

I agree with you 100%... The Jesus of the bible was a Jewish man who only sought reform with his culture, but his idea was taken out of context. There's as much political as well as personal agenda within bible authorship. Constantine used Christianity to fuel his political position and create social reform.

Basically, you've got a lot of Christians going in opposite directions and somebody tried to put it all together in the form of the bible. The oldest and original manuscript concerning Jesus was NOT a narrative, but a few teachings (some of which are also present in religions preceding Christianity). It was called the Quelle. There was no virgin birth, resurrection, etc...

Using the Quelle, the author known as Mark embellished stories that conveniently fall withint he typical hero archtype of the ancient world: 1) Born of unusual circumstances or powers 2) Becomes discovered and revered 3) Comes into the height of his power 4) Is betrayed by a loved one and 5) Becomes vindicated in death. This same equation can be applied to any hero in antiquity: Hercules, Mithra, King Arthur, etc...

But at least Mark didn't say Jesus was born of virgin, or that he rose from the dead in three days... The original Mark ends with simply an empty tomb — a symbolic idea representing spirituality, NOT physical resurrection. Years later, Christian-fanaticism would produce virgin births, physical resurrections and ascending to heaven before people's eyes.

Nearly a century after Jesus, Matthew writes of a virgin birth too conveniently related to Mithras to dismiss. He also makes several errors in geography which signals that he wasn't native to Palestine. Matthew records that Jesus drove some possessed pigs off the cliffs of Garadenes. Garadenes is inland and the closest cliffs are some 50 miles away. Those pigs would have travelled for days, if not weeks to jump off. Not even lemmings can do that! Supposedly, Jesus rose from the dead in three days and nights... Unfortunately, Matthew didn't read his manuscript close enough — he has Jesus dead the evening of Friday and back to life Sunday morning. That's barely 2 nights and a day and a half. There's so much more, but I'm not going to get into it because as I've said, it's all relative to our existence, not the Universe.

Bjjexpertise@be

According to my religeon teacher back in middle school, God was not created but 'simply' was always there.

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pstevens

Seriously, I thought I was talking with someone with a college education. But since you failed to realize that I already addressed this issue in my original post, I'll just let myself out.

jubaji

...can't keep up?

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pstevens

Yeah, and if you paid close attention you would have realized that I addressed that already. The nature of existence and the Universe is inconceivable...Hence, something as conceivable as god is simply our interpretation of "what might be." But, it does not reflect the ultimate truth of the Universe... That's inconceivable remember... Unless ofcourse, you fully understand the meaning of existence.

Hikage

I would like to applaud those who are defending the creationists view. IT is a very difficult stance to take because God wants people to believe in him based on faith, and not on waht see's in a microscope.

PStevens, I question you on your statement that the Bible is so full of holes. What you're telling me is that you've never read the Bible to study it (and I don't mean read it in Sunday school, or for a semester of study, I mean really read it) and that you are latching on to some lame argument created by someone who realized a while back that many so-called Christians out there don't read it either. I welcome your challenge and the time is now... where are the holes?

-Hikage

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Hikage

Honestly, where do you get this crap? This is just another lame argument that you heard someone else use and you haven't researched it yourself. Where's your proof? You fool, they don't use previous tranlastions to create new translations. To do so would be ridiculous and pointless. No one would read it. Translation teams and their practicies are always placed under heavy scrutiny. For example, there are a number of atheists placed onto these translation teams in order that outsiders could not claim that theists are tainting the story and to ensure an accurate translation.

-Hikage

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Sanitarium

Evolution.

There is no such thing as God, the concept of a God is a lingering example of 2000 year old human lack of knowledge and should have been phased out of existence.

Everything in the world around us points towards evolution and logical science, nothing points towards God except fairytale books which people are still to this day indoctrinated with from birth.

All the oh so convenient getouts like 'dont take the bible literally' sadly don't make up for the glaring and consistent contradictions, hypocrisy and vagueness in the bible.

95% of religious people are religious (and so defensive and adamant they're right) because their parents taught them to believe in God before they were allowed to think for themselves, mainly in middle eastern countries and Southern America.

Luckily over here in England we're slowly becoming less religious and abandoning the shackles of old, the people you see at churches are mainly in their 60/70/80s. This is because our parents dont fill our minds with rubbish before we're even capable of rational thought, and well we're growing out of it really.

At the end of the day, no (as I'm sure has been/will be asked) we logical people cannot 'disprove' god. But that is irrelevant. Seeing as logic, the world around us, evidence and theory is on our side, the onus is actually on you to prove God. It's like me saying 'I'm Bruce Lee's brother, I can punch 2000 times a second'. Can you disprove it? No. Do you have to? No

Hikage

Wow, you said a whole lot of nothing in so many words.. I'm impressed. You are mistaken in saying that it is my job to prove God. I did not post on this thread until someone made claims that they read on a subway wall. It is their job, my friend, to prove their statements.

Since you have also mentioned the "glaring and consistent contradictions" I invite you as well to prove YOUR statements. I'm not going to idly sit back and watch you spout of letters of the alphabet without making words. Now cough up the proof.

-Hikage

PS> 60% of all statistics are made up.

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Sanitarium

well, elaborate then

Perhaps I should have clarified, 'you' implying 'the believer/defender' and not you in paticular.

Ex. 20:13 Thou shalt not commit murder.
Ex. 32:27 Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, put every man his sword by his side...and slay every man his brother...companion..neighbor.(See also 1 Sam. 6:19; 15:2,3; Num. 15:36)

Ex 20:5 "...for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God..." (see also Ex 34:14, Deut 4:24, Josh 24:19, and Nah 1:2)
Gal 5:19-20 "Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are...jealousy..." (See also 2 Cor 12:20)

Should we tell lies?
Ex. 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness.(Prov. 12:22; Rev. 21:8)
1 Kings 22:23 The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee. (II Thess. 2:11; Josh. 2:4-6 with James 2:25)

Should we steal?
Ex. 20:15 Thou shalt not steal. (Lev. 19:13)
Ex. 3:22. And ye shall spoil the Egyptians. (Ex. 12:35-36; Luke 19:29-33)

Shall we keep the Sabbath?
Ex. 20:8 Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. (Ex. 31:15; Num. 15:32,36)
Is. 1:13 The new moons and the Sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity. (John 5:16; Matt. 12:1-5)


Shall we make Graven images?
Ex. 20:4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven...earth...water. (Lev. 26:1)
EX. 25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them.

Are we "saved" through works?
Eph. 2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith...not of works. (Rom. 3:20, 28; Gal. 2:16)
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.(Matt. 19:16-21)


Should good works be seen?
Matt. 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works. (I Peter 2:12)
Matt. 6:1-4 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them...that thine alms may be in secret. (Matt. 23:5)


Should we own slaves?
Lev. 25:45-46 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy...and they shall be your posession...they shall be your bondmen forever. (Gen. 9:25; Ex. 21:2,7; Joel 3:8; Luke 12:47; Col. 3:22)
Is. 58:6 Undo the heavy burdens...break every yoke. (Matt. 23:10)


Does God change his mind?
Mal. 3:6. For I am the Lord; I change not. Num. 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent. (Ezek. 24:14; James 1:17)
Ex. 32:14. And the Lord repented of the evil which he had thought to do unto his people. (Gen. 6:6; Jonah 3:10; Sam. 2:30-31; II Kings 20:1-6; Num. 16:20-35)


Are we punished for our parent's sins?
Ex. 20:5 For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generations. (Ex. 34:7)
Ezek. 18:20 The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father.

Is God good or evil?
Psa. 145:9. The Lord is good to all. (Deut. 32:4; James 1:13)
Is. 45:7 I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things. (Lam 3:38; Jer. 18:11; Ezek. 20:25)

Is God Peaceable?
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you. (Luke 2:14; Acts 10:36)
Matt. 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth, I came not to send peace, but a sword. (Matt. 10:35-37; Luke 22:36)

Was Jesus trustworthy?
John 8:14 Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true.
John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

Shall we call people names?
Matt. 5:22 Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire.
Matt. 23:17 (Jesus said) Ye fools and blind.

Has anyone seen God?
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at anytime. (Ex 33:20; Tim. 6:16; John 6:46; I John 4:12)
Gen. 32:30 For I have seen god face to face. (Ex. 33:11, 23; Is. 6:1; Job 42:5)

How many gods are there?
Deut. 6:4 The Lord or God is one Lord.
Gen. 1:26 And God said, let us make man in our image.(Gen. 3:22; I John 5:7)

Are we all sinners?
Rom. 3:23 For all have sinned. (Rom. 3:10; Psa.14;3)
Job 1:1 There was a man... whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright. (Gen. 7:1; Luke 1:5-6)

When was Jesus crucified?
Mark 15:22 and it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
John 19:14-15 And about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out...crucify him!"

Shall we obey the law?
I Peter 2:13 Submit yourself to every ordinance of man.
Acts 5:29 We ought to obey God rather than men.




I don't need proof, I have this thing called common sense on my side combined with proven logic, proven science, intelligence.


100% of the bible is made up.

Btw, were your parents christian?

Lizard

Amen to that brother. My parents did not try to indoctrinate me into christianity at an early age.

The story of my contact with christianity goes like this:

Someone with a logical, anylitical mind looks at a religion from an unbiased stance and decides that it is bullcrap.

It is a tale of hope and joy.

I too am from england and I shudder when I see some of the beleifs put forward by american fundamentalists (eg "pro life groups" who follow jesus's messege of peace and tolerance by killing and bombing things).

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Lizard

You want inconsistancy:

Incest is wrong We are all descended from 2 people.

God is a perfect being. God gets angry (a fallable human emotion).

God is all powerful. God cannot prevent eve from taking apple.

God is good. God drowns many innocent people.


The bible was written with the intention of selling christianity to the romans. If the people who really knew and understood jesus had written it then christianity would probably have died out.

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Hikage

Alright, it's on then. Finally, someone who can bring something to the table. BTW, I am impressed, how did you find these so quickly? Which website did you hit up to do teh thinking for you?

Some of these examples are pretty good and are going to require some research. I need to look up the passages in order that I can see the context (as I don't have the Bible memorized.) Remember, it is important that any time you quote something from the Bible you always take into note the context in which it was written.

Others of these examples are lame, but that it to be expected. I ask that you please give me some time to make the necessary research and I will give you your explanation w/o resorting to cliche and pansy rationale, but rather with truth and logic.

Lizard: I am sorry you feel that way. Bear in mind, not everyone here is in accordance with Bush's decision to rule the world and many of us cannot wait to vote him out later this year. IT has nothing to do with fundamentalism.

Yes, parents were christians. However, I denounced their particular faith becuase it has serious flaws in it. I apologize to teh Lutherans out there but the message you preach is flawed. For a time I lived as an atheist and when I did come to Christianity my parents were no where in sight.

-Hikage

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