Speaking as someone who is good at maths, one of my biggest concerns would be that with all of the books out there that were supposidly inspired by god, how do you know youve got the right one?

Bible, Qui'ran, Guru granth sahib.

Already theres only a 1 in 3 chance that youve got the right book. Personaly, I dont like anything less than a 1 in 2.

And seriously now, if i wrote/inspired people to write a book about how great and good i was, would you accept it all? or would you consider that i might be biased?

Honestly, where do you get this crap? This is just another lame argument that you heard someone else use and you haven't researched it yourself. Where's your proof? You fool, they don't use previous tranlastions to create new translations. To do so would be ridiculous and pointless. No one would read it. Translation teams and their practicies are always placed under heavy scrutiny. For example, there are a number of atheists placed onto these translation teams in order that outsiders could not claim that theists are tainting the story and to ensure an accurate translation.

Sure the translation teams these days are closely watched but what about back then? They needed more followers and what better way to reap them in than by translating and exaggerating one text to anotherin hopes of getting more recruits.

On a side note I would like to ask a question. If God created Adam and Eve in the beginning, how did they co-exist with humans? I'm not trying to challenge you with this question but am merely asking how a creationist views this.

Originally Posted by Bjjexpertise@be

If God created Adam and Eve in the beginning, how did they co-exist with humans?

What do you mean by co exist with humans?

The Bible is filled with gaps and questions. Here is a good one from Genesis chapter 5 after Cain kills Able:

5:16 - And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

5:17 - And Cain knew his wife; and she concieved and bare E'noch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after his son E'noch

5:18 - And unto E'noch was bornI'rad: and I'rad begat Me-hu'ja-el: and Me-hu'ja-el begat Me-thu'sa-el: and Me-thu'sa-el begat La'mech

So the obvious question is if only Adam and Eve and teh 2 sons existed who did Cain knock up. Well Maybe csomeone can give a good answer but I have never heard a respectable answer and I have asked many theologians. I have heard angels to technically adam an eve were not the only humans created on earth, they were the only ones in Eden.

Oh sorry, I ment co-exist with dinosaurs.

Another question is, when they only had 2 sons, how did they reproduce?

hahaha, jeez, reading some of this has been quite entertaining.

Some of you should really try learning about what you are talking about before you speak.

Also it is hard to take a translated version of something and then point out areas that seem contridictory.

If you are going to do it you better go back and read it in the original before you make your judgements.


And for lizard who keeps talking logic but rarely displays any. Anger is only illogical to vulcans.
Evil is defined as in oposition to gods will
According to the bible there are no innocents.
Death is not a punishment according to the bible.

There is no proof for or against God.

Questions that shed light on creation and evolution.

Did God create the universe with AGE? Adam and Eve were adults not babies so Yes.
Are there really any timelines in the bible? No there are not. There was no concept of 1 million 3 thousand years ago they had no need for such a number.
As a book does any other text support the bible. Yes, historical accounts point to the fact that many of the events took place and that people were in the areas that they said they were.


As for lutheranism. I would be interested in hearing the "flaw" in the teachings and to what sect of Lutherans you are referring.

Originally Posted by eXcessiveForce

And for lizard who keeps talking logic but rarely displays any. Anger is only illogical to vulcans.
Evil is defined as in oposition to gods will
According to the bible there are no innocents.
Death is not a punishment according to the bible.

There is no proof for or against God.

Questions that shed light on creation and evolution.

I have a very logical mind. I have already won this argument a few times. Perhaps you just have a hard time understanding me.

Anger is illogical because a computer does not display anger. To posses anger is only logical if it proves advantageous in your current situation (and even THEN the emotion itself is not logical). Unless god has a brain with chemicals similar to ours then he cannot expirience such things. If he has a brain then he is limited.

Death is not considered a punishment? my BS alarm is going off.

Look Ive recently converted to Maltheism, the most cool and rebelious faith available. God DID write the bible, its glaring inconsistensies and hypocracy prove not that he does not exist, merely that he is an evil liar who requires our worship to survive (which is why he created a world full of evil).

Strange as it may seem considering my obvious sillyness, my beleifs are actualy much easier to prove than yours.

Originally Posted by Lizard

I have a very logical mind. I have already won this argument a few times. Perhaps you just have a hard time understanding me.

Nope no trouble at all. I was here when you switch from on martial art is best to another is best. Very few of your statements display logic or even a grasp of what logic is. I have not seen a winner of this debate. From anyone. Nor have people been using arguments that would even lead to proving or disproving creation or evolution or the existence of God. Logic only tells us if something is logically true or false. Not whether something is a fact or even based in reality. It is a deduction upon reasoning with regard to a certain premis.

Anger is illogical because a computer does not display anger. To posses anger is only logical if it proves advantageous in your current situation (and even THEN the emotion itself is not logical). Unless god has a brain with chemicals similar to ours then he cannot expirience such things. If he has a brain then he is limited.

Please prove this premis. Saying something does not make it so. You are saying that GOD which may or may not exist cannot experience emotion because you say he cannot? Please provide proof because if you can prove that he cannot experience emotion you must prove that he exists. To prove that an all powerful being (God) exists you invalidate just about every argument made in this tread to date.

Death is not considered a punishment? my BS alarm is going off.

Death according to the Bible is when you are sent for judgement before God. It is either your ticket to heaven or hell. According to the bible if you have lived correctly you will enter heaven a place of joy and happiness. How can this be a punishment?

Look Ive recently converted to Maltheism, the most cool and rebelious faith available. God DID write the bible, its glaring inconsistensies and hypocracy prove not that he does not exist, merely that he is an evil liar who requires our worship to survive (which is why he created a world full of evil).

Exactly how does being a rebelious faith make it "cool" Again you say God is evil but evil is doing contrary to Gods will. So unless you can prove that he exists and that he is doing contrary to his own will he cannot be evil. According to the Bible evil was brought upon the world because of free will. people had the right to think for themselves.

Strange as it may seem considering my obvious sillyness, my beleifs are actualy much easier to prove than yours.

Again please prove your beliefs. To prove something you will need to provide factual evidence. Not simply state something is so because you would like it to be.

Also please tell me what my beliefs are. I have not stated in this thread what my beliefs are. So I again would like to know how you can make this statement logically.


In the entire post there was not one shred of logic or a logical argument made regarding the topic.

Maybe you should actually take a course in logic so that you understand what it really is.

No I think Ill leave this argument before Im beaten any further...

Maltheism is "cool" because of two reasons:

1) It makes more sense, an all perfect, all powerful god would not exist (since existance is imperfection), would not create a universe (it would have no need of one and so, being perfect would not waste its energy), would not write a book about how great it was and control peoples lives (pointless and cruel).

2) Rebels in a tribal society had a good chance of overthrowing the dominant males and replacing them, therefore the females that were attracted to them at an early stage (while they were rebelious) had children that did well (as the children of a dominant male)... hence evolution... forget that one. Its obviously the case but since the thread is a debate on evolution... just complicates things up, an sub argument whose validity is questioned by the nature of the thread.

By the way, since most logicaly good children do well at science and are indoctrinated (yes I admit, scientists do it too) into evolution, science has an unfair advantage in these debates. Im impressed with some of excessive forces arguments and its better to NOT beleive but to understand than to beleive but NOT understand.

My younger brother beleives in evolution and laughs at the six days creation... but he has never made an effort to understand evolution, his faith is as blind and foolish as those who do not question the bible. I tried questioning him about how he can fully beleive things that he doesnt even understand but he got upset... to be honest Im still hoping hes adopted or somehow got all the opposite genes to me...

And for the record, evolution DOES exist unless Something is deliberately keeping species the same by preventing useful mutations from occuring.

The real question is: evolution affects all species, they will slowly change but is that how they were Created?

This argument should be:

Were we created and are now slowly evolving? Or did we start off as microbes then evolve to how we are now (and are continuing to evolve)? ... or is god playing tricks on us?

Oh sorry... evil is not defined as contrary to gods will. Evil is a label we put on things because thats the way morality works. This could be through evolution or possibly god wants/requires us to have independant morals.

If god is all powerful then nothing could ever be contrary to his will and nothing would be evil.

Get out of THAT one.

I must admit that I’m a little disappointed as this was easier than I thought it would have been. I urge you to take all I have said into consideration and post any further questions that you may have. I understand that this is not all we are talking about on this post, but I think I have thoroughly ruined the argument that the Bible has “glaring inconsistencies.”

For further reading, I encourage you to read Lee Strobel’s (a professional journalist) The Case for Christ and The Case for Faith. In the first, he tries to disprove Christianity and ends up becoming a Christian himself. In the second, he posses the big questions (Why is their evil) to the biggest theological minds of today.
Also, look at http://millersvillebiblechurch.org/p...hp?pageID=2584 and click on the resources. I suggest to you Pastor Steve’s resources and Pastor Eric’s Resources.


Ok, here we go….

Ex. 20:13 Thou shalt not commit murder.
Ex. 32:27 Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, put every man his sword by his side...and slay every man his brother...companion..neighbor.(See also 1 Sam. 6:19; 15:2,3; Num. 15:36)

Many people, Christians included, struggle with the notion that God can be warlike at times. Most prefer to think of him as only loving and all-peaceful but this is an inaccurate portrayal.
Man is not supposed to indiscriminately end another’s life out of anger, jealousy or retribution (ex. Cain and Abel). There are times, however, when a civilization is oppressing God’s people that entire civilizations have been destroyed. In the past, when civilizations have threatened Israel, God has put them to death because they were threatening to conquer his chosen people. God intervened and had the Israelites put to death all of the opposing force, women and children too. It seems barbaric, but history has shown us that if they do not, the Israelites will incorporate the foreigners into their own civilization (no problem yet) but also incorporate their ideas and culture, which usually includes some form of pagan worship, thus separating them from their leader.

Ex 20:5 "...for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God..." (see also Ex 34:14, Deut 4:24, Josh 24:19, and Nah 1:2)
Gal 5:19-20 "Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are...jealousy..." (See also 2 Cor 12:20)

The problem here is that there is an incorrect translation. The original text uses 2 different words for jealousy. Unfortunately, the English language does not support this distinction. It’s similar to how the language of the Eskimos has 42 words for snow. The jealousy which refers to God is accurate; however the jealousy that we are to avoid would better be translated as envy or coveting.
So what’s the difference? Jealousy is defined as something that is rightfully yours and is for some reason being taken away from you. In this case, our love and devotion for God are rightfully his. As our creator, he deserves our love and devotion, but that love is being re-directed in the form of idols and he is jealous of those idols.
Envy or coveting are defined as having desire for something that is not yours and to which you have no rightful claim, i.e. your neighbor’s wife. Now that brings to light a different question. Are we able to be jealous as God is? Yes. There is a such thing as righteous anger. If someone sleeps with your wife, you have a right to be angry because they are taking something that is yours. Jesus overturned the tables in the temple because they were making a mockery of the temple. Once again, righteous anger.

Should we tell lies?
Ex. 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness.(Prov. 12:22; Rev. 21:8)
1 Kings 22:23 The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee. (II Thess. 2:11; Josh. 2:4-6 with James 2:25)

These are not God’s people who are lying. Read on…
1 Kings 22


Micaiah Prophesies Against Ahab

1 For three years there was no war between Aram and Israel. 2 But in the third year Jehoshaphat king of Judah went down to see the king of Israel. 3 The king of Israel had said to his officials, "Don't you know that Ramoth Gilead belongs to us and yet we are doing nothing to retake it from the king of Aram?"
4 So he asked Jehoshaphat, "Will you go with me to fight against Ramoth Gilead?"
Jehoshaphat replied to the king of Israel, "I am as you are, my people as your people, my horses as your horses." 5 But Jehoshaphat also said to the king of Israel, "First seek the counsel of the LORD ."
6 So the king of Israel brought together the prophets-about four hundred men-and asked them, "Shall I go to war against Ramoth Gilead, or shall I refrain?"
"Go," they answered, "for the Lord will give it into the king's hand."
7 But Jehoshaphat asked, "Is there not a prophet of the LORD here whom we can inquire of?"
8 The king of Israel answered Jehoshaphat, "There is still one man through whom we can inquire of the LORD , but I hate him because he never prophesies anything good about me, but always bad. He is Micaiah son of Imlah."
"The king should not say that," Jehoshaphat replied.
9 So the king of Israel called one of his officials and said, "Bring Micaiah son of Imlah at once."
10 Dressed in their royal robes, the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat king of Judah were sitting on their thrones at the threshing floor by the entrance of the gate of Samaria, with all the prophets prophesying before them. 11 Now Zedekiah son of Kenaanah had made iron horns and he declared, "This is what the LORD says: 'With these you will gore the Arameans until they are destroyed.' "
12 All the other prophets were prophesying the same thing. "Attack Ramoth Gilead and be victorious," they said, "for the LORD will give it into the king's hand."
13 The messenger who had gone to summon Micaiah said to him, "Look, as one man the other prophets are predicting success for the king. Let your word agree with theirs, and speak favorably."
14 But Micaiah said, "As surely as the LORD lives, I can tell him only what the LORD tells me."
15 When he arrived, the king asked him, "Micaiah, shall we go to war against Ramoth Gilead, or shall I refrain?"
"Attack and be victorious," he answered, "for the LORD will give it into the king's hand."
16 The king said to him, "How many times must I make you swear to tell me nothing but the truth in the name of the LORD ?"
17 Then Micaiah answered, "I saw all Israel scattered on the hills like sheep without a shepherd, and the LORD said, 'These people have no master. Let each one go home in peace.' "
18 The king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, "Didn't I tell you that he never prophesies anything good about me, but only bad?"
19 Micaiah continued, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD : I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?'
"One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'
22 " 'By what means?' the LORD asked.
" 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.
" 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD . 'Go and do it.'
23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

Should we steal?
Ex. 20:15 Thou shalt not steal. (Lev. 19:13)
Ex. 3:22. And ye shall spoil the Egyptians. (Ex. 12:35-36; Luke 19:29-33)

Let me give you the WHOLE story,

15 God also said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites, 'The LORD , [3] the God of your fathers-the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob-has sent me to you.' This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation.
16 "Go, assemble the elders of Israel and say to them, 'The LORD , the God of your fathers-the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob-appeared to me and said: I have watched over you and have seen what has been done to you in Egypt. 17 And I have promised to bring you up out of your misery in Egypt into the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites-a land flowing with milk and honey.'
18 "The elders of Israel will listen to you. Then you and the elders are to go to the king of Egypt and say to him, 'The LORD , the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. Let us take a three-day journey into the desert to offer sacrifices to the LORD our God.' 19 But I know that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless a mighty hand compels him. 20 So I will stretch out my hand and strike the Egyptians with all the wonders that I will perform among them. After that, he will let you go.
21 "And I will make the Egyptians favorably disposed toward this people, so that when you leave you will not go empty-handed. 22 Every woman is to ask her neighbor and any woman living in her house for articles of silver and gold and for clothing, which you will put on your sons and daughters. And so you will plunder the Egyptians."

They are not stealing from the Egyptians as much as punishing them for their oppression and disbelief.

Shall we keep the Sabbath?
Ex. 20:8 Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. (Ex. 31:15; Num. 15:32,36)
Is. 1:13 The new moons and the Sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity. (John 5:16; Matt. 12:1-5)

You have to forgive my dimness, but I don’t see the problem here with these passages.
However, just as a blanket statement, Christians are no longer required to obey the Sabbath. Christ’s death on the cross fulfilled the law (including the commandments) so that we no longer need to follow it (i.e. ceremonial washing of hands, animal sacrifice, etc.) However, we are to follow Christ’s teaching which can be found all through the Gospels and explained in the following epistles, which for the most part mirrors God’s commandments. Someone who uses the Sabbath as an argument against the consistency of the Bible has obviously not read it for meaning.

Shall we make Graven images?
Ex. 20:4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven...earth...water. (Lev. 26:1)
EX. 25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them.

Just so we’re clear, for the un-initiated, cherubims are angels, not God. Secondly, you have to put this into context of the time. At this time, the people were making sculptures, paintings, etc. of almost every god that came down the pike. The people wanted something visual that they could worship and so they made things like golden calves to which they gave their praise. God did not want any old hack making what he thought to be God and giving it his praise.
The cherubim were significant because they were to go onto the tabernacle. Before the death of Christ, the high Priest went into the holy place (room in the temple) to account for the sins of the people for the past year. There, in that room, God was present between the wings of the cherubim. The praise in this case was not going to the cherubim, rather to Him.


Are we "saved" through works?
Eph. 2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith...not of works. (Rom. 3:20, 28; Gal. 2:16)
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.(Matt. 19:16-21)

Of course we’re not saved through works. We are saved by grace. To think that we can ‘earn’ our way in to heaven is laughable. As you quote later, “For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” And “the wages of sin is death.” Meaning hell. The Christian needs to believe that Christ lived a perfect life and served as a sacrifice (the ultimate animal sacrifice.) That’s it.
Ok, now how does the 2nd part of this work in here? In the context of this James passage, it also says that “works without faith is dead.” The church at that point in time (funny how what I’m about to say is still here today) was riddled with people who claimed to be believers but did not live the Christian life. James is telling the people (and this is mirrored throughout the teachings of Jesus, Paul, and Peter) that we are to judge those who claim to be believers in order that heresy or false teaching would not enter into the church. The believer who is honestly saved or justified will have made changes in his or her life, “a new creation in Christ” as Romans says. I.E. – a sexually immoral person turns from his or her life. Also people would begin doing things they did not always do – giving to the poor. Helping the needy. These are not necessary for salvation, however they are signs of it for which believers are supposed to look out in other believers to avoid, as I said, heresy. Then and now nothing is more detrimental to the Christian cause than someone who claims to be a believer but is a hypocrite.


Should good works be seen?
Matt. 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works. (I Peter 2:12)
Matt. 6:1-4 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them...that thine alms may be in secret. (Matt. 23:5)


I must admit, I feel like you’re grabbing at straws here. The last few anyone who has read the Bible should have known. These are just statements taken out of their context. As I stated in previous posts, anything can be proven using Scripture if you take only snippets of what you want the Bible to say. You have to take into account the culture of the time and the paragraphs around your passage or else you get stuff like this.
In the second passage he is speaking to the Pharisees and Sadducees (the teachers of the day) who did their “good works” for all to see. However, they do their works so that they might receive praise from men, not God. The key here is humility.
This is to be contrasted by people who do their good works or deeds for the glory of God, not their own personal pride. They are to live their lives in full honesty. If you make a mistake, don’t hide it but be open about it and let men see your honesty. We as Christians are to let others know that we are Christians. There is no such thing as “ninja Christians”. Who says “I’ve been a Christian for 17 years, and NOBODY knows!”? The biggest reason that others will want to become Christians is that if others can see the changes in our lives, the joy, and the assurance that we have in Christ then they will be more apt to want to join us.
But this works both ways. I personally feel that the biggest reason for atheism today is other Christians who profess Christ with their lips and deny him by their lifestyle. These people are not Christians and are not to be confused with those who really do make an attempt to life the correct life. It is important to understand the distinction that these passages are making. In once instance he’s talking to those who are on God’s side and in the other he’s talking to those who are in it only for praise from men.


Should we own slaves?
Lev. 25:45-46 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy...and they shall be your posession...they shall be your bondmen forever. (Gen. 9:25; Ex. 21:2,7; Joel 3:8; Luke 12:47; Col. 3:22)
Is. 58:6 Undo the heavy burdens...break every yoke. (Matt. 23:10)

OK, let me give you a little more of what it’s saying…
6 "Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
to loose the chains of injustice
and untie the cords of the yoke,
to set the oppressed free
and break every yoke?
The oppression is the problem, not the slaves. No where in the Bible does it say anything about not having slaves. Rather, it is the mistreatment that is the problem.

Feel free to click on these to see the whole context. The following is concerning the correct treatment of slaves. You see no where does it condemn the ownership of slaves.
Ephesians 6:5
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.
(Whole Chapter: Ephesians 6 In context: Ephesians 6:4-6)
Ephesians 6:9
And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.
(Whole Chapter: Ephesians 6 In context: Ephesians 6:8-10)
Colossians 3:22
Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.
(Whole Chapter: Colossians 3 In context: Colossians 3:21-23)
Colossians 4:1
Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven.
(Whole Chapter: Colossians 4 In context: Colossians 4:1-2)
1 Peter 2:18
Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.
(Whole Chapter: 1 Peter 2 In context: 1 Peter 2:17-19)




Does God change his mind?
Mal. 3:6. For I am the Lord; I change not. Num. 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent. (Ezek. 24:14; James 1:17)
Ex. 32:14. And the Lord repented of the evil which he had thought to do unto his people. (Gen. 6:6; Jonah 3:10; Sam. 2:30-31; II Kings 20:1-6; Num. 16:20-35)

Ok, change. Wrong meaning of change. When we change as humans, we think of how we change our ideas and philosophies on life. Also, when we get older, we change as we get wiser and have more life experiences. This is what God is saying. He does not change as we think of it.
This is not to be confused with changing one’s mind, which God will do. There are several instances when God has been influenced by the pleadings of his most devoted followers. I am reminded of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.