Thai Bri

True.

But people need to decide on what they want to learn. If they want some kind of ritual movements, thats fine. But its a bit daft to pretend to yourself and others that it has something to do with real fighting.

KopyKat

Sorry Bri, i ment to say effective in a real life situation, everything is "effective" for something, but that doesn't mean that something is what you want for the street...

old skool dude

[quote=KungfuJeremy]I'm wondering why a lot of people in this forum are always insulting martial arts systems such as tae kwon do or kungfu or mma. These are just a few martial arts that i have seen being insulted. I do not understand why certian people at this martial arts forum have so much disrespect for martial arts in general

It all comes down to respect.
The fact is that All martial arts systems has something in it for someone. NOT EVERYONE is a born warrior and wants to use this for fighting. Fighting gets "old" real fast, I'm speaking as someone who IS older and DID like fighting when I was younger. When you're younger you want to "crush, kill destroy and conquer" in one sense, that's perfectly normal, because when your'e younger you have that warrior spirit, and also have the physical tools to carry out "destruction"
When you get older your mind changes your priorities change. That doesnt mean that You "cant fight" You are just more interested in training other aspects of yourself. Tha martial arts are an excellent means to do that. You can do that through kata, through meditation, even through sparring and competition.
Lack of respect only shows your ignorance and imaturity, and to be honest, a LOT of people are "brave" online because they are typing on a keyboard, and not confronting a real person. To bash someone because they are studying another system that YOU find unappealing is assinane, infantile and counterproductive. Let's remember that we are NOT just individuals who practice martial arts but we are also a COMMUNITY and as such, all people in the community deserve respect. It is the foundation of any relationship.

old skool dude

[quote=Lizard]Although he didnt put it very politely, Thai Bir is correct. Some styles are better than others

What Style is better? I would have to say, the one that works for you when you have to use it. Here's a case in point.

I had a training partner who trained in traditional Hung Gar Gung Fu, complete with the two man sets, traditional weapons, animal forms, and horse stance training (where he had to stand for an hour or more) Now this guy was also a phenominal fighting having competed (as we did back in the old days) in bare knuckle full contact matches, using kickboxing, grappling or whatever.
He worked nights as a bouncer in one of NYC's "adult establishments" and as you might have guessed, didnt lack experience in throwing out lowlife and street scum on a daily basis.
One night while working this disgruntled patron comes into the establishment making a lot of trouble with the girls and was asked to leave. My friend had his back turned and noticed out of the corner of his eye the guy was preparing to attack, well he turned and shifted into a picture perfect hung gar bow and arrow stance, blocked the guys punch with one of those"riduculous" outside blocks, and then hit the guy dead in the solar plexus with of all things---gasp--- a reverse punch. That one technique ended the confrontation, and he stated that he didnt know "where" the technique came from, it was just "there" Now you can make up all the "shoulda, woulda , coulda, rebuttals that you want, but for THAT particular instance, that TRADITTIONAL technique worked. It wasnt useless, and came out of his traditional training. He has used more contemporary techniques to subdue patrons also. What I am saying here is that there is a PLACE for so called traditional techniques. I even recall ending a fight with a "good ole" "Karate chop" (shuto) to the sides of a guy's neck! It DOES WORK! Also, have you ever fought someone and "kiaied" before, after, or during striking? It DOES have a debilitating affect on an opponent. I've used it in sparring, and had opponents tell me for a split second, they "froze" and were unable to move. ( Im NOT talking about making that literal sound KIAI! that you hear children say in karate class. When you HEAR a person do a REAL Kiai, You'll know it. But then again, in order to find out about it, you'd have to be willing to have the RESPECT to inquire about it from a traditional instructor.

Tom Yum

[quote=old skool dude]Are you the police officer in that video of that cop KOing the mean looking pimp with the karate chop outside the 5th ward...jj?

Good point. Sometimes traditional techniques can work. They don't allways hold up in MMA, but if they work atleast once in a real situation who can argue.

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Thai Bri

An Axe Hand type blow is very very effective. the reason it is not in MMA fighting is that it may well kill someone.

TMA do have many effective techniques......but they don't train them effectively.

shuyun

Then thai bri the problem therein lies in arrogance.

when the practicioner cannot recognize the flaws of his system and fails to see the need for modification then he'd lose.

when a person jumps in the new bandwagon and declares the old as passe simply because its no longer the rave then that person is naive.

what wins fights ultimately not technique but superior attributes. a boxer with only 5 types of punches in his arsenal can take out a TKDjin not because of technique but because of toughness.

traditionalists are flawed when they fail to adapt but when they do adapt their years of combat effectivity evolves from years of experince used in the proper context. techniques are lousy when used out of context.

breaking is seen as a useless art by many as made popular by Sifu Lee's "Boards don't hit back." (he only meant that board breaking is not a measure of fighting skill.) While board breaking has degenrated into exhibitions, in the olden days the lethality of your attacs have to be measured without injuring anyone else. Breaking techniques were meant to be equalizers against armed opponents. and the execution of the technique was instantaneous not the 2 minutes of qigong that contestants do to focus before the break.

Styles were invented in historical contexts. There was a need for them and necessity gave birth to them. when the need disappeared so did some of the applications of the arts yet its up to the heirs of the art whether they'll stagnate or evolve.

no one has any right to diss anyone's art. I myself am a street fighter and the street is the measure of my art, yet it is not my place to diss people who are into tournament style training.

the way to overcome inferiority of the arts is not through snobishness and elitism but through more "let's sit in a cirlce pc crap." warriors of old developed their arts by comparing notes that kept more arts alive and functional.

And finally no matter how "perfect" an art is personal attributes have to be taken into consideration. Not all arts are created equally well for all people. some have striker builds some have grappler builds. I'd hate to see an 80 pound weakling choose BJJ as his chosen art ("soft way" my foot strength is required in jujitsu).

the first question of the thread was a question towards understanding not a beginning of a conflict; unless that is all some eyes see.

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Bjjexpertise@be

You'd think there'd be a reason why weaklings like Royce Gracie managed to beat strong-bad-tough guys like Dan Severn.

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shuyun

that's nice. i never said it can't be done but there are rational limits you know.

gracie for all his build is still muscular. he is not a weakling. the "soft way" of jujitsu is anything but soft. there is focused power but power nontheless. the first things judokas develop are endurance and stregnth too if you don't happen to know. the david vs. goliath thing is a deadly analogy. it lulls people into a false sense of security. heck even david wasn't a weakling. his testimony declares that he can wrestle with lions and bears (1Samuel17)

physics wise mass is mass. there's this stupid epsiode in lois and clark where an i-ching master supposedly could redirect superman. Superstrength vs. super chi. Man!!! superman has super chi! the most direct and visible form of all strength. and besides its like saying you can redirect a truck.

higly mobile yet light individuals can do full flying kicks (properly executed chambering and all) and do nada to another guy. and if mass does not account for anything why would judokas themselves have weight catgories?

do not underestimate extreme brutal strength. it would do good to a martial artist to realize that he is not super human it keeps you alive longer.

still going back yes i do believe there is power in taichi. i can push hands my sparring partner from full stance even though he's twice my mass but the more massive my opponents get the less likely i can do that. that's reality.

do you know that sumo is in direct conflict with aikido? theyknow the same grappling and throwing techniques but with a whole lot more mass. imagine trying to do a yokoshio on a stanced ready to charge sumo wrestler. unnerving isnt it?

yes we can beat bigger guys due to the dynamism of combat but it would be helpful when you know that the odds are agaisnt you.

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Bjjexpertise@be

Compared to us indeed Royce is muscular, but compared to the competitors in UFC and Pride, he is weak.
David was a 'weakling', the reason he wrestles lions and bears and lives is because he has faith and God is on his side. God wouldn't let the future king of his people die now would he.
Bjj isn't really about redirecting, to me, it's more like pitting your entire body weight against a single muscle group and/or using a stronger muscle against a weaker muscle.
For bigger and stronger opponents I usually just pull guard or do a 'flying move'(flying armbar,etc.).
I concur.



We seem to have a good discussion going and I hope it doesn't turn turn into one of those "let's flame everyone" threads.

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shuyun

Yes Royce is less muscular than the other competitors but there is still a minimum to be met. It would be naivette to think we do not need stregnth training even agsint people of our weight category. And David was in fact a trained combatant. People execise faith as it is given to him and in truth he was ready agaisnt goliath because God himself trained him in unconventinal warfare his faith was built it wasn't blind trust. He knew what he could do and he knew God will allow him to do it.

even so effort is still used. there's nothing to stop a stronger opponent to do the same thing. he may very well be trained in the same discipline.

I do flying attacks agsint stronger opponents too (as kick combinations and sometimes try my darndest naked choke while riding piggyback hassn't failed me yet). Yet a strong opponent may have a good sense of timing and may see a flying armbar coming. Ever seen power lifters carry guys with one arm? You'll arm bar that?

I know because our group's anathema is a monster. Okinawan Karateka with speed (no gi but you can hear a very audible woosh when he punches and kicks) timing and the build of a powerlifter (indeed he was used to quarter squat 250lbs) he knows our techniques with strength to boot. For all our grappling experience he can disengage a grapple by doing a quick hook punch and his arm would slip an established double handed grab. He's an offensive blocker and uses breaking techniques as a block. We can't throw him because once we establish the throw he can lift us with one hand. Extreme attributes cannot be denied.

Yet I do find our exchanges stimulating. Bjjexpertise you're quite a guy.

yes i don't intend to but I don't pull punches. Its called "emotinal content" as Bruce would say.

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Bjjexpertise@be

Once you set on the armbar, you have to apply pressure to make them fall down. It is not uncommon for people to hold you off the ground when you apply a flyiong armbar. Yes they are strong enough to hold you there, but they aren't strong enough to throw you around. Especially if you are applying pressure.

Instead of throwing him, have you tried to do takedowns or guard pulls?
Well that goes for all MA's out there as well. Do you know one MA where being bigger and stronger isn't to your advantage?

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shuyun

he is strong enough.

his center of gravity is too low he's too stable and he knows how to counter takedowns. he has mastered disengaging from grapples...no contact no throw.

that's exactly my point. in all martial arts strength is a plus factor. those with the abundance of it are at a very big advantage.

I'm not aying our friend is a perfect fighter all I wanna point out is that body types play an important consideration for what martial arts you can apply most effectively. His strength was meant for striking. He knows about grappling but never allows the fight to get there. He drops to horse stance when an attempt to throw him is made. If he is grappled he disengages or pummels the grappler till he lets go. there's an attribute which i term as "limb awareness". this attribute is best applied agaisnt a superior grappler. simply put if he takes your right hand let him have it while he's busy with it use your other limbs to strike. In most cases no counter grappling is needed with that. When ever someone grabs i strike. When I am twisted i go with the twist and accelerate into a strike. In ground work I pinch and grab and poke and bite if need be (no rules in a streetfight). But I'm not copping out i do know how to grapple.

In the end how do you fight a guy who's arm strength is more than equal to your own chambered kick? How does Spiderman (as strong as he is) engage the Hulk in the UFC?

and to go back to the point of the thread why inults i don't really know why? It's human nature to put labels i guess. What is misunderstood is feared and reviled. That's why people hate JKD is a martial art that's not. Wetern thought seeks to define and categorize while in asian thought there is acceptance.

My point is there is no best art. There is a best art for you, that which best fits you but it may prove to be difficult for another? Ever seen obese brazilians do Capoeira? Or can you imagine Bruce Lee competin in a sumo match ?(following rules of course, exactly why he fights with none) or can you imagine a wushu contestant use a highland broadsword? It is infact in wepons that tailor made martial arts moreobious becue of tailor made weapons.

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Bjjexpertise@be

There was a spiderman episode about that. Hulk had Spidey in a bear hug and was squeezing the life out of him, but then Spidey thought of Mary Jane and found the strength to break free and subdue him.


It seems that the guy you are talking about is very strong, knows what grappling is, and is trying to prevent from going to the ground. If he really is that strong try to do moves that target other areas of the body, I'd prefer the neck. Have you tried a flying triangle? And when you enter a clinch, have you ever tried unbalancing then going to a lateral drop? When you do the lateral drop it forces him to bend down, if you fail to throw him over, he will find himself in your guard, if you do throw him over, even better. Either way you enter grappling mode.
How about the dropping trip? I find that it works fairly well on fat boys. One of the keys to beating fat people is unbalancing. Just remember kuzushi kuzushi kuzushi!

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Lizard

Using a gun, smaller person is smaller target to hit.

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