Our New World Order - Page 3

Garland · 03-16-2005, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eXcessiveForce

all men are created equal, it's what you do after that that changes things.

Some will chose to improve their situation, others will choose not to.

No one owes you or anyone else anything. People want to be given things.

No one should have a right to take money from my paycheck to take care of their problems. It's mine. Stealing from me because of need is still stealing.

As for the drugs, if their was no incentive (profit) why would they do it? common property would lead to no R&D.

As this goes on, I'm left with my first impression that we are doing someones homework again.

You just totally killed my faith in humanity. People won't produce cures if they can't make money off of it? That's absurd.
Private property is a bourgoise idea. Nobody will take the product of your labor away...
You work hard, and you are absolutely ENTITLED to what you gain from your occupation.

Just out of curiosity, what type of work do you do? This will help me better illustrate my point that you're most likely getting fucked by your boss or CEO.

eXcessiveForce · 03-16-2005, 10:43 PM

I started my company at 16 with 800 bucks, today I now own my own gym. So If i'm getting screwed I'm doing it to myself.

I also work for the state in the mental health field.

You have to look at it this way. If there is no money in it people won't do it. At the end of the day people have to make money to feed their family and such. People who are intelligent enough to create cures will seek out employment that will provide for their families. They aren't going to make cures at 5 to 10 bucks an hour.

One of the main problems with communism is that there is no motivation for people to excel. Why work hard if working hard doesn't get you more than somebody that isn't working as hard.

Why would you go to school all those years and get all that extra training to earn the same as somebody getting out of high school.

Tom Yum · 03-16-2005, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garland

I am well aware of the processes involved in producing a medication. Long, tedious and time consuming...but for those that do it, it's a passion..

No, there's more to it in terms of different stages. Stages and processes that require money to get through.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garland

But why should they make more than the other hard-working person who's pulling their own weight and doing a great job washing dishes or doing janitorial work for a living? .

The cost of producing a drug is greater than the cost of washing dishes and doing janitorial work, therefore the price is higher. Drug manufacturing and marketing is a business, just like janitorial services. At the end of the day, these activities are motivated by profit so price is set to maximize profit.

Think of drug production as a manufacturing process. Get to the library and check out a few books on the topic...

In addition, people are willing to pay more for a drug to treat their illness or save their lives then they are cleaning services.

Take some classes in economics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garland

Sure, they've got the student loans to pay off, but that's also a construct of our society. Education should be free, and the goal should not be to make more money and increase your socio-economic position, it should be to learn how to better onesself and to perhaps help contribute of the common good of society.

Be yourself.

Tom Yum · 03-16-2005, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garland

You just totally killed my faith in humanity. People won't produce cures if they can't make money off of it? That's absurd.
Private property is a bourgoise idea. Nobody will take the product of your labor away.You work hard, and you are absolutely ENTITLED to what you gain from your occupation..

Do you live on your own?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garland

Just out of curiosity, what type of work do you do? This will help me better illustrate my point that you're most likely getting fucked by your boss or CEO.

Your boss or CEO makes sure that things run smoothly, safely and that you eventually get your paycheck. Your goal is to find the right boss with the right values, ethically and professionally cause if there's a mismatch, then you'll probably be at the short end of the stick. Get to the library and read up on HR case studies; you will see what I mean.

You make your boss's job easier by being productive, working hard and updating him with important info so he can make decisions.

You can start your own company and that makes you the boss.

Garland · 03-16-2005, 11:53 PM

Alright. You guys have been great. I don't neccessarily agree with some of your logic, but that's why these little brainstorming sessions are great.

Now...if there were only an easy way to keep people on the cutting edge as far as medicine and technology goes, and to ensure free healthcare and decent educations without sacrificing one thing or another....well, we'd already be doing it.

There are no simple answers for this sort of thing.

I would, however, hope that people do things in the hopes of helping others and making sure that they can survive and ensuring their and their families futures, without the need to accumulate more at the cost and expense of others.
But, as both of you so blatantly pointed out, that's the way things are in our culture. But, just for one second, imagine things being better off for everyone. Post hoc ego property hoc. You know, where what's good for the part isn't necessarily good for the whole (i.e. a miniscule minority holding the vast majority of wealth and the means of production)...and not entirely the other way around.

People do what they want, and when they do, and when they find a calling, they pull there own weight. Accusing communists or socialists of being freeloaders is a far stretch from reality.
The "quick fix" epidemic might be ingrained in human nature, as a human being is never truly content with what they have...but yet again, it might be another malady, not necessarily created, by perpetuated and maintained by our way of life.

everybody should have a fair chance for survival and the things neccessary for living a happy and purposeful life, I believe the concept of social darwinism, simply because those who are generally born into money end up being the ones to control things down the road, and those born into poverty, generally speaking, stay there. Just because it's our current reality doesn't make it right, or doesn't make it neccessary. There are enough resources and enough wealth in this world to see that nobody goes hungry, or without a home...it's just that that money is currently being misappropriated towards plasma tv's, crib's style mansions, movie stars, professional athletics, and the fat cat beurocrats that keep the cogs of the capitalist machine in place.
Just because some of you came from a background where you could invest into a decent future, does not at all mean that everyone else is given such a life saving opportunity. Don't you feel as if you have an obligation to help those that TRULY (not like the professional pan-handlers who get the 10 bucks an hour tax free, but the truly impovershed or the working poor) never got that chance?

It would be like growing up in germany during WW2 and seeing the holocaust as just being the way things are.

5.50 an hour is not a living wage.

Tom Yum · 03-17-2005, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garland

Alright. You guys have been great. I don't neccessarily agree with some of your logic, but that's why these little brainstorming sessions are great.

Be yourself Garland. That's the best thing you can do for yourself. Your 19 and pumped!

Being 19-22 were great times

Toudiyama[NL] · 03-17-2005, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eXcessiveForce

One of the main problems with communism is that there is no motivation for people to excel. Why work hard if working hard doesn't get you more than somebody that isn't working as hard.

Why would you go to school all those years and get all that extra training to earn the same as somebody getting out of high school.

Most of the jobs I had, working hasrder than coworkers didn't change my position, it only resulted in my boss expecting me to work harder than my coworkers all the time

Why would I go to school and do it at the same level and in equal time, if I still end up geting less
I studied Electronics, I would have made more if I studied fine-mechanics

I now work at a callcenter and earn more than when I still worked in electronics but it pays the least of all ICT jobs ( less than 1500 euro gross for newcomers)
At 43 this is the first job where hard work is rewarded, I never had to ask for promotion

Oh a lot of inovations gome from universities, so not all is related to direct payment of the researchers ( the budget on the other hand is of huge influence)

Tom Yum · 03-17-2005, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toudiyama[NL]

Most of the jobs I had, working hasrder than coworkers didn't change my position, it only resulted in my boss expecting me to work harder than my coworkers all the time

Great point. It all depends on the environment you work in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toudiyama[NL]

Why would I go to school and do it at the same level and in equal time, if I still end up geting less
I studied Electronics, I would have made more if I studied fine-mechanics
I now work at a callcenter and earn more than when I still worked in electronics but it pays the least of all ICT jobs ( less than 1500 euro gross for newcomers). At 43 this is the first job where hard work is rewarded, I never had to ask for promotion. Oh a lot of inovations come from universities, so not all is related to direct payment of the researchers ( the budget on the other hand is of huge influence)

I think a lot of people who are going to be part of a workforce (and realize not everyone is meant to be CEO) would get the most satisfaction out of a job where they could make a decent living and get rewarded for hard & productive work.

jubaji · 03-17-2005, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

Be yourself Garland. That's the best thing you can do for yourself. Your 19 and pumped!

Being 19-22 were great times

Thank goodness most people grow out of it!

eXcessiveForce · 03-17-2005, 09:57 AM

Society sets the rate at which someone is paid. It determines how much service you have given and rewards you equally to that amount of service.

The idea that poor people remain poor is a fallacy in the United states. Every day people from other countries with nothing come to the united states and many of them end up with substantial assets some even become millionaires in a short amount of time.

Read the book millionaire mind by Charles Stanley, he studied millionaires and found that those people who suffered hardship in their younger times became more productive and were often more successful. where as those who were wealthy (parents were wealthy) often were not as successful.

Nothing is free. When you say health care should be free, what you are saying is it should be free to you. The problem is somebody is going to pay for it. Insurance companies are businesses not charity, they set their bottom line and their profit margin and then try to stay in that range.

Anybody can work at mcdonalds, (that's where I got the money to start my company) but not everyone can be a brain surgeon. If you look at maslow's hierarchy of needs the section at the top is self actualization. If everybody where self actualized then yes people would work for the betterment of others. But to be actualized they must first feel safe and secure, have support from families, be recognized and feel rewarded for their accomplishments, and such. Once all the lower needs are met they will start to try and help others.

Face it, look at baseball players, football players, and hockey players. They all want more money, now don't you think we could find people to play baseball all day for 40K instead of 40M. It probably be more interesting to watch too. But enough people value sports to justify paying these people those salaries. If everybody just stayed home a couple years, their salaries would drop and beer at the ball park would get cheaper.

Another thing to realize is that if it wasn't for your CEO you may not have a job. My first employees were worthless, they did nothing and expected to get paid. They felt I owed them a job. Well guess what, they don't work for me anymore. Now I have no problem with the employees I have. But those employees get their paychecks whether I can pay my house payment or not.
I take risks by starting my company, I could end up with nothing, so if it works well then I will make more than those who did not take risks.

that's why it is silly to tax the rich, or tax companies, Companies don't pay taxes, Charge Mcdonalds $1 per hamburger in taxes and guess who pays it. the person buying the hamburger. Tax the rich and guess what they don't do. They don't hire on more workers in their companies. Or the may even leave the country if it becomes to much.

The whole everything should be free just doesn't work simply because teachers want more, even ones that are getting paid well want more. Doctors want more, Engineers want more.

Just look at what socialized medicine does to quality. It lowers it. In Canada people must wait for slots to have surgeries, sometimes new machines to diagnose are available. At least in the US you can get top of the line today if you can come up with the money or have insurance.

Tom Yum · 03-17-2005, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jubaji

Thank goodness most people grow out of it!

Yeah. Crazy times.

Tom Yum · 03-17-2005, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eXcessiveForce

Society sets the rate at which someone is paid. It determines how much service you have given and rewards you equally to that amount of service.

The idea that poor people remain poor is a fallacy in the United states. Every day people from other countries with nothing come to the united states and many of them end up with substantial assets some even become millionaires in a short amount of time.

Read the book millionaire mind by Charles Stanley, he studied millionaires and found that those people who suffered hardship in their younger times became more productive and were often more successful. where as those who were wealthy (parents were wealthy) often were not as successful.

Anybody can work at mcdonalds, (that's where I got the money to start my company) but not everyone can be a brain surgeon. If you look at maslow's hierarchy of needs the section at the top is self actualization. If everybody where self actualized then yes people would work for the betterment of others. But to be actualized they must first feel safe and secure, have support from families, be recognized and feel rewarded for their accomplishments, and such. Once all the lower needs are met they will start to try and help others.

Face it, look at baseball players, football players, and hockey players. They all want more money, now don't you think we could find people to play baseball all day for 40K instead of 40M. It probably be more interesting to watch too. But enough people value sports to justify paying these people those salaries. If everybody just stayed home a couple years, their salaries would drop and beer at the ball park would get cheaper.

Another thing to realize is that if it wasn't for your CEO you may not have a job. My first employees were worthless, they did nothing and expected to get paid. They felt I owed them a job. Well guess what, they don't work for me anymore. Now I have no problem with the employees I have. But those employees get their paychecks whether I can pay my house payment or not. I take risks by starting my company, I could end up with nothing, so if it works well then I will make more than those who did not take risks.

that's why it is silly to tax the rich, or tax companies, Companies don't pay taxes, Charge Mcdonalds $1 per hamburger in taxes and guess who pays it. the person buying the hamburger. Tax the rich and guess what they don't do. They don't hire on more workers in their companies. Or the may even leave the country if it becomes to much.

The whole everything should be free just doesn't work simply because teachers want more, even ones that are getting paid well want more. Doctors want more, Engineers want more.

Just look at what socialized medicine does to quality. It lowers it. In Canada people must wait for slots to have surgeries, sometimes new machines to diagnose are available. At least in the US you can get top of the line today if you can come up with the money or have insurance.

I agree with about everything you said.

Wanting more depends on what more is. For some people its money, for others its satisfaction or growth because the two are not allways the same.

More money is great, but not at the expense of satisfaction.

Garland · 03-17-2005, 08:00 PM

AHA!
Today doesn't count...today's Irish Anarchy Day...
time to drink and fight, ay ta ta ta ta ta tay.

Tom Yum · 03-17-2005, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garland

AHA!
Today doesn't count...today's Irish Anarchy Day...
time to drink and fight, ay ta ta ta ta ta tay.

So get on with yer drunkin' boxin'...

(oh, he's green too!)

03-16-2005, 10:43 PM	#32 (permalink)
eXcessiveForce Excessive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Missouri Posts: 2,906 Groans: 0 Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post	I started my company at 16 with 800 bucks, today I now own my own gym. So If i'm getting screwed I'm doing it to myself. I also work for the state in the mental health field. You have to look at it this way. If there is no money in it people won't do it. At the end of the day people have to make money to feed their family and such. People who are intelligent enough to create cures will seek out employment that will provide for their families. They aren't going to make cures at 5 to 10 bucks an hour. One of the main problems with communism is that there is no motivation for people to excel. Why work hard if working hard doesn't get you more than somebody that isn't working as hard. Why would you go to school all those years and get all that extra training to earn the same as somebody getting out of high school. __________________ eXcessiveFORCE. If you must use force, make it excessive. www.b-prime.com A success and achievement community

03-16-2005, 11:53 PM	#35 (permalink)
Garland Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 5,011 Groans: 1 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Alright. You guys have been great. I don't neccessarily agree with some of your logic, but that's why these little brainstorming sessions are great. Now...if there were only an easy way to keep people on the cutting edge as far as medicine and technology goes, and to ensure free healthcare and decent educations without sacrificing one thing or another....well, we'd already be doing it. There are no simple answers for this sort of thing. I would, however, hope that people do things in the hopes of helping others and making sure that they can survive and ensuring their and their families futures, without the need to accumulate more at the cost and expense of others. But, as both of you so blatantly pointed out, that's the way things are in our culture. But, just for one second, imagine things being better off for everyone. Post hoc ego property hoc. You know, where what's good for the part isn't necessarily good for the whole (i.e. a miniscule minority holding the vast majority of wealth and the means of production)...and not entirely the other way around. People do what they want, and when they do, and when they find a calling, they pull there own weight. Accusing communists or socialists of being freeloaders is a far stretch from reality. The "quick fix" epidemic might be ingrained in human nature, as a human being is never truly content with what they have...but yet again, it might be another malady, not necessarily created, by perpetuated and maintained by our way of life. everybody should have a fair chance for survival and the things neccessary for living a happy and purposeful life, I believe the concept of social darwinism, simply because those who are generally born into money end up being the ones to control things down the road, and those born into poverty, generally speaking, stay there. Just because it's our current reality doesn't make it right, or doesn't make it neccessary. There are enough resources and enough wealth in this world to see that nobody goes hungry, or without a home...it's just that that money is currently being misappropriated towards plasma tv's, crib's style mansions, movie stars, professional athletics, and the fat cat beurocrats that keep the cogs of the capitalist machine in place. Just because some of you came from a background where you could invest into a decent future, does not at all mean that everyone else is given such a life saving opportunity. Don't you feel as if you have an obligation to help those that TRULY (not like the professional pan-handlers who get the 10 bucks an hour tax free, but the truly impovershed or the working poor) never got that chance? It would be like growing up in germany during WW2 and seeing the holocaust as just being the way things are. 5.50 an hour is not a living wage. __________________ homo homini lupus

03-17-2005, 09:57 AM	#40 (permalink)
eXcessiveForce Excessive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Missouri Posts: 2,906 Groans: 0 Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post	Society sets the rate at which someone is paid. It determines how much service you have given and rewards you equally to that amount of service. The idea that poor people remain poor is a fallacy in the United states. Every day people from other countries with nothing come to the united states and many of them end up with substantial assets some even become millionaires in a short amount of time. Read the book millionaire mind by Charles Stanley, he studied millionaires and found that those people who suffered hardship in their younger times became more productive and were often more successful. where as those who were wealthy (parents were wealthy) often were not as successful. Nothing is free. When you say health care should be free, what you are saying is it should be free to you. The problem is somebody is going to pay for it. Insurance companies are businesses not charity, they set their bottom line and their profit margin and then try to stay in that range. Anybody can work at mcdonalds, (that's where I got the money to start my company) but not everyone can be a brain surgeon. If you look at maslow's hierarchy of needs the section at the top is self actualization. If everybody where self actualized then yes people would work for the betterment of others. But to be actualized they must first feel safe and secure, have support from families, be recognized and feel rewarded for their accomplishments, and such. Once all the lower needs are met they will start to try and help others. Face it, look at baseball players, football players, and hockey players. They all want more money, now don't you think we could find people to play baseball all day for 40K instead of 40M. It probably be more interesting to watch too. But enough people value sports to justify paying these people those salaries. If everybody just stayed home a couple years, their salaries would drop and beer at the ball park would get cheaper. Another thing to realize is that if it wasn't for your CEO you may not have a job. My first employees were worthless, they did nothing and expected to get paid. They felt I owed them a job. Well guess what, they don't work for me anymore. Now I have no problem with the employees I have. But those employees get their paychecks whether I can pay my house payment or not. I take risks by starting my company, I could end up with nothing, so if it works well then I will make more than those who did not take risks. that's why it is silly to tax the rich, or tax companies, Companies don't pay taxes, Charge Mcdonalds $1 per hamburger in taxes and guess who pays it. the person buying the hamburger. Tax the rich and guess what they don't do. They don't hire on more workers in their companies. Or the may even leave the country if it becomes to much. The whole everything should be free just doesn't work simply because teachers want more, even ones that are getting paid well want more. Doctors want more, Engineers want more. Just look at what socialized medicine does to quality. It lowers it. In Canada people must wait for slots to have surgeries, sometimes new machines to diagnose are available. At least in the US you can get top of the line today if you can come up with the money or have insurance. __________________ eXcessiveFORCE. If you must use force, make it excessive. www.b-prime.com A success and achievement community

03-17-2005, 08:00 PM	#43 (permalink)
Garland Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 5,011 Groans: 1 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	AHA! Today doesn't count...today's Irish Anarchy Day... time to drink and fight, ay ta ta ta ta ta tay. __________________ homo homini lupus

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