MatthewAlphonso

I posted more than one link. Furthermore, a minority of Samurai even owned swords. And, Knights also had their own forms of martial arts (look again to the fechtbuchs). Also the knights, in general, would have had better armour and the iron found in Europe was of a higher quality. Also, think about this, Before Admiral Perry steamed into the harbour, how many different peoples had the Japanese fought against? 2 plus fighting themselves? the European knight would haven been an expert at fighting against people who didn't fight like him, after all he probably would have fought wars al across Europe, and then there's the crusades. (perhaps we should set a time line here? I mean this is a pretty broad period. Say 16th century?) That would mean that European generals would have a greater sense of tactics.

You asked about European knightly icons, how about Balien of Ibelin. The hero of Jerusalem, He was iconified in a rather recent movie. or King Richard the Lionheart, he was quite famous for his actions in battle.

but like I said, we should set a time-line, I say 16th century, because after that the gun becomes more prevalent in Europe, and that would just make it unfair.

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Hardball

I'm gonna rent that movie asap. I'm open minded, I know the Knights were not slouches. Even though I voted for the samuari, I have the utmost respect for the Knights. I really think their weapons' skills were about equal but I give the unarmed skills to the Samauri. Changing the subject a little bit...have you ever rode a horse? Man, I can't imagine fighting with a sword or rapier from a horse. Horsemanship was a big part of training in those days. I used to ride every sunday and man those hack horses are stubborn. The best horsemen started training when they were little boys. I guess the Knights were better horseman also.

As far as setting a time line---that would not work for me because I don't know history that well.

Have you ever read a Book of 5 Rings by Miyamoto Musashi?

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MatthewAlphonso

I think the unarmed skills would have leaned slightly to the Samurai but then again the Feudal knights would have had more practice applying their techniques against other people that don't fight like them, so that may have been a toss up as well.

No, sadly I've never ridden a horse though I would like to. The sword, being a weapon of last resort would rarely have actually been used from horseback (another movie myth) more often the lance would have been used until the knight was surrouned or the lance (Yari? for the samurai I guess) was broken or lost. then the mace or hammer would come out (having more mass and impact than the sword) and finally the sword would come out.

Also for a little FYI the rapier, being a gentlemans weapon would not have been used in warfare, it was used only in a duel or for a gentleman to defend himself with, I can't really think of any japanese counterpart.

That makes it very hard to settle this dispute, Knights in combat alone stretches from roughly 800 AD to roughly 1650 AD. As for Japan I don't really know, I'd estimate 500 AD to 1750 AD? during that time frame there was a lot of evolution of techniques and methodology of warfare in Japan and especcially in Europe.

Yes I have, I found it an interesting read, deeply philosophical, why do you ask?

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That which doesn't kill me had better be able to run damned fast. ~Anon~

Hardball

Is there a counterpart for the knight? I mean the Book of 5 Rings is an all time Martial Arts classic. How about George Silvers paradoxes of defense? Have you read it yet?

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The Way of the Warrior is Practice. Daily practice, accumulate practice minute by minute, hour by hour and day by day. {Book of 5 Rings} Mike Brewers 2008 Sit up challenge 50,000/100,000 running balance.(Crunches) Kicks 6,300/100,000

BoarSpear

Check out the "Master Ott's Wrestling" thread i started in open acess

Sensei Saki

:-) Checking...stand by.

MatthewAlphonso

No I have not read George Silver's Paradoxes of Defense, right now I'm trying to get a feel for the actual combat before I begin learning combat theory, much in the way that I practiced with my bokken long before I read the Book of 5 Rings. I am figting with my sword and board before I read too many fectbuchs. I can't really tell you if there are many counter parts for th Go Rin No Sho partially because I haven't pursued any and partially because the broadsword (my current sword of preference) was given up in Europe long before the Katana was given up in Japan.

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That which doesn't kill me had better be able to run damned fast. ~Anon~

BoarSpear

Actual combat? .....Ugh you arent calling SCA reenactments combat are you? or the fighting the SCA does at Fairs and the like...

Where do you get your techniques if you arent familiar with the manuals of the day?

MatthewAlphonso

The SCA doesn't do your typical renfest, it is full contact, uncoreographed combat. Our wars are nearly as realistic as you ca safely get. I would say it is more realistic than you can get in a kendo dojo. Sure there are other groups that practice with steel weapons but they don't participate in full scale wars, also practicing with steel places limitations on what types of armour and weapons can be used, you don't see steel reenactors using maces do you?

[/quote] Where do you get your techniques if you arent familiar with the manuals of the day? [/quote]

Trial and error as well as observation and what others can teach me, it's one thing to read, it's completely different to apply

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That which doesn't kill me had better be able to run damned fast. ~Anon~

Hardball

Paradoxes of Defense (The unofficial Bible of the Knight) is a Joke compared to the Book of 5 Rings. (The unofficial Bible of the Samauri)

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The Way of the Warrior is Practice. Daily practice, accumulate practice minute by minute, hour by hour and day by day. {Book of 5 Rings} Mike Brewers 2008 Sit up challenge 50,000/100,000 running balance.(Crunches) Kicks 6,300/100,000

BoarSpear

i know a number of SCA people, NONE of them will tell you in any way shape or form " it is full contact, uncoreographed combat".

i got this pic from the SCA site...isnt this one of your "battles"?

Try studying some actual techniques from the Manuals, dont rely on techniques learned from people who hold their conventions with trekkies

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Tant01

Trial and error, eh... sheeesh! This is better than all the studies of the men that actually used these weapons in warfare or mortal combat?


Yeah, you don't need to struggle through Paradoxes... it's written in OE so it's not worth it to attempt some kind of authenticity in your technique (or language)


"And consider that learning has no greater enemy than ignorance, neither can the unskillful ever judge the truth of my art to them unknown, beware of rash judgment and accept my labors thankfully as I bestow them willingly, censure me justly, let no man despise my work herein causeless, and so I refer myself to the censure of such as are skillful herein and I commit you to the protection of the almighty Jehovah.
Yours in all love and friendly affection,
George Syluer" (Silver)

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"In all countries where personal freedom is valued, however much each individual may rely on legal redress, the right of each to carry arms - and these the best and the sharpest - for his own protection in case of extremity, is a right of nature indelible and irrepressible, and the more it is sought to be repressed the more it will recur."

James Paterson

Hardball

It's the drawings that Make George Silivers Paradoxes worth looking into. The Old english is not that hard to understand. I got a kick out of how simplified the drawings are.

__________________
The Way of the Warrior is Practice. Daily practice, accumulate practice minute by minute, hour by hour and day by day. {Book of 5 Rings} Mike Brewers 2008 Sit up challenge 50,000/100,000 running balance.(Crunches) Kicks 6,300/100,000

MatthewAlphonso

I would rather have a feel for how the weapons feels in my hand before I try to book learn, it'd be like some jackass kid from a mcdojo try and pick up a stick and try to use it in a real fight.

my persona is scots, I'm trying to learn another language, reading through old English wouldn't bother me too much, I could probably get a modern english translation anyway.


I don't know what kingdom you're in but round here and most people in other kingdoms that I've met all agree it's full contact uncoreographed. if you don't believe me go to a fighter practice sometime. just bring your own jock strap, I don't think you wanna borrow one.

1) No one called it the unnofficial bible of the Knight 2) could you perhaps explain your position and 3) since any warrior rarely had any time for reading (if they were even literate), I doubt many samurai read the Go Rin No Sho, much less considered it their bible

__________________
That which doesn't kill me had better be able to run damned fast. ~Anon~

BoarSpear

[quote=MatthewAlphonso]
I don't know what kingdom you're in but round here and most people in other kingdoms that I've met all agree it's full contact uncoreographed. if you don't believe me go to a fighter practice sometime. just bring your own jock strap, I don't think you wanna borrow one.
[quote]


Yeah well i dont own tights and i dont wanna borrow any of those either.... the SCA wide rulebook FORBIDS hitting hard or trying to injure an opponent. You are not allowed to touch the opponent or his weapon with anything except your weapon....NO real weapons are allowed...i already said i know quite a few barbarians and weapons makers for the SCA....its FAR from full contact...sure you flail at each other, so it isnt coreographed, but it damn sure isnt full contact. or authentic