Uke

Floyd Mayweather is the best boxer of this new era. No arguments. But I don't even have to go to him to demonstrate what I was saying. Mickey Ward is hardly a great or even good boxer. He was a journeyman, or what boxing folk like to call an "opponent". He beat Arturo Gatti in their first and greatest match. It wouldn't take a great boxer to beat either of them. Just a decent boxer like Demarcus Corely.

But I think you're missing the point. The point is that there is a clear line that is drawn when it comes to recreational skill and honed skill. When you begin saying that people like Vitor Belfort and Don Frye are "great" boxers, you imply that those two are among the great boxers, which is ridiculous. You have no basis to state that, as you have never even seen them fight against subpar boxers, let alone against great boxers. Those two at their current level of skill are no match for even lower tier pro boxers. They are tough, but they are MMA fighters, not boxers.

Another thing, thowing a punch makes you a boxer about as much as thowing a kick makes you a Tae Kwon Do master. Just because these guys punch doesn't make them boxers by a longshot. While Vitor Belfort may have a boxing background in Brazil, he CLEARLY does not want to pursue a future in boxing. Now, I've stated this before and gotten mixed responses. The most bizarre being that he doesn't care about money and might like 200k over 2 million. You're free to believe whatever you like, but more than likely Belfort realized that he isn't the boxing dynamo that many of you would like to believe. He may be better than alot of the other MMA fighters in terms of boxing, but that isn't really saying a whole lot, now is it? Vitor knows he has a much better shot at being a MMA star than he'd ever have at being a boxing star.

The same applies in martial arts as well. There are much better athletes and fighters in TMA than MMA fighters and advocates would have you believe. If anyone believes that all traditional martial artists had weak technique and were soft hitting sparring partners until MMA came around, then they didn't know anything to begin with. When you leave the McDojos alone and search out quality schools with excellent instruction, you can find excellent fighters in all disciplines. Jujitsu. Tae Kwon Do. Karate. Aikido. Kung Fu. They're out there. But you have the guys who never trained before the UFC who are the ones creating myths about what works and what doesn't.

Don't believe that Tae Kwon Do works? Go to Korea and challenge their national team to a all out match. You'd probably be killed.

Don't believe Karate is effective in this day and age? Tell that to Grandmaster Steve Muhammad, one of Ed Parker's top fighters and the man that Bruce Lee said had the fastest hands he'd ever seen. Or to Taika Seiyu Oyata, who is the real deal, not like George Dillman. George Dillman created his whole style by following Taika Oyata around the country and attending his seminars. After he felt as though he ripped off enough, he began his own.

I've personally read on this site where some people have dismissed Aikido as just fluff and tradition. That immediately let's me know that have little exposure to the art. As bad as Segal's movies have gotten of the years, he is a very proficient and legitimate teacher and fighter. Another excellent school of Aikido I had the good fortune to work with was Mushaba Force. These young gentlemen were very soft spoken, but incredibly vicious in their execution of the soft art. They were very, very impressive.

There are other syles of Kung Fu that are combat applicable other than Wing Chun. There is Crane. There is Eagle Claw. But one based in NY is a very vicious and intense system called Fu Jow Pai. Its head was Master Wai Hong, later by Tak. These guys are great fighters, but the closed door students are the ones who really receive the best schooling. This school can be seen on "The Warrior Within", the tribute to Bruce Lee by various top martial artists.

These people I listed are all fanatics. They are very serious about their training and teaching. They are overachievers in their fields. And they are just a few I listed. If you've ever had the pleasure to train with any of these people you'd know exactly what I'm talking about. They seem almost supernatural in their execution. But many who don't know think that the pinnacle of TMA training looks like Fred Ettish and Scott Wizard from the early UFC's.

I still stand by what I previously wrote: If you have not reached, experienced or witnessed a higher, more proficient level of mastery, then there is no way to accurately gauge skill because you have nothing to base it off of. Calling Belfort a great boxer was 10 times worse than calling Gatti a great boxer. While neither are great boxers, Gatti's at least a player on the board.

__________________
A solar panel 100 miles by 100 miles (161x161km) in the Mojave Desert (USA) could replace all the coal now burned to generate electricity in the entire U.S.

Tom Yum

I say great in reference to the average practitioner - the guy who gets to the gym when he can, hits the bag, works the mitts and spars. Frye and Belfort are either Golden Gloves/ just turning pro.

Sounds like your well accomplished in the sweet science??


I understand the difference between an MA-ist that throws a punch vs. a skilled boxer, quite well. I'm personally well aware of it.

I'm callin' it like I see it - I have experienced and witnessed pro-level boxers. But I'm just a rec. amateur and also an afficianado of the sport.

One of my favorite things to do is watch a pro-fight, live if possible. Its like a mental training lesson and makes me want to train harder; its a great time.

Hey if you're in the top-10 of your weight class or training them, then hats off to you, Uke and you deserve alot of credit and respect.

If you can share more about your training experiences and some of the glory from training pros or fighting them, I'd love to listen. If you can teach, I'm willing to sit and learn.

Uke

I have never claimed to have glory from training or fighting anyone. NY is littered with Golden Glove champions and fighters. I have grown up with them, trained with them, and around some pros. That's not my glory.
Changing the direction of this debate to call into question whether or not I've been a pro boxer does nothing to strengthen your argument, as my being a pro or a pro trainer was never the point in contention. I don't need to imply your credentials in order to discuss the inaccuracy of your statements, because even if you were a pro trainer, it wouldn't make the statement any less misinformed.

You called two MMA fighters great boxers, and nothing you can attempt to amend after the fact will make that statement any more true. You now say that you meant great in terms of average boxers. But, aren't average boxers ... average? What you said was the equivilent of saying that Billy Blanks is a great kicker. And when someone argued that he couldn't compete with CroCop who actually is a great kicker, you would then later state that you were talking in terms of average aerobic instructors.

The whole point of this debate was to acknowledge the differences between recreational skill and skill honed to a level of mastery, and I suppose I did that because now you are referring to skills among average MMA fighters. But since when did people begin to use two different criterias to judge the ability of men? Is this some politically correct maneuver to acknowlege those who are less capable? Last I checked, boxing and MMA weren't the special olympics.

Its comments like yours that allow people to believe that MMA has evolved into something that TMA's weren't doing all along. The real credit goes to the Gracies, not to MMA itself, for showing TMA's that they lacked a serious ground game. And that's where it ends. MMA hasn't produced any truths further than what the Gracies exposed in the first 3 UFC's.

Fact: MMA fighters don't punch nearly as proficient as boxers.
Fact: MMA fighters don't kick nearly as proficient as kickboxers/thaiboxers.
Fact: MMA fighters don't grapple nearly as well as pure grapplers(BJJ,Sambo, judo).
MMA fighters are basically athletes who are in excellent shape that train to be thaiboxers with some ground game. This is no knock on them, but just an accurate description of how the game has changed since its inception back in the first UFC.

Back then, the UFC hoped to lure more credible traditional martial artists into their tournament. After the first few, the competition began getting bigger, but less skilled. Soon, the UFC was on the verge of going under. They found some really good guys like Marco Ruas, Dan Severn and Oleg Taktarov before switching up the format. Since they couldn't lure credible TMA's to fight in their tournament, they began hiring UFC fighters to train young guys with little experience and created their own generation of new fighters. The new crop had a better ground game and defense, so-so striking skills, and much better physiques. Some are clearly on steroids but only one to my knowledge has been caught. Josh Barnett.

But you can consider great whomever you like. That's subjective. Being great in the eyes of someone and them being great at something they do are two different things. Just as long as we're both clear on that. I feel as though you think I'm trying to diminish the efforts of Frye and Belfort. I'm not. I respect them and their efforts. I just didn't agree with your assessment of their boxing skills.

__________________
A solar panel 100 miles by 100 miles (161x161km) in the Mojave Desert (USA) could replace all the coal now burned to generate electricity in the entire U.S.

jubaji

Mickey Ward wasn't a "good" boxer? A pro record of 35-9 with 26 KOs isn't "good"? What a load of bullshit. And to think you started this whole thread to complain about people making exaggerrated claims.

__________________
Optional signature you may use to appear at bottom of your posts.

jubaji

seems to be your insecurity about MMA for some reason.

__________________
Optional signature you may use to appear at bottom of your posts.

Tom Yum

Hey man, I'm not trying to use credentials - as I've said before, I'm an amateur at best, love to watch fights and train. I'm just saying from my relatively short experience as an amateur or weekend warrior, training with some good coaches, sparring with different fighters - I think a great boxer is someone who can actually earn a spot in the pros. We can agree to disagree on the semantics of the adjective great.

I'm not trying to win the argument; I'll give it to you - you win. Golden Gloves boxers are a dime a dozen and great boxers are the ones who occupy the top 10 in the pro-ranks.

I just assumed that maybe you were a trainer or up & coming fighter?? I respect your opinion.

I'm here to learn too and I was hoping maybe you could add something about a fight you were a corner-man in, a fighter you trained, tactics you pull off in sparring or even a drill that upped your game.

I like to watch fights too.

J-Luck

Billy Blanks is a ...(dont quote me on this but you can look it up) 3 time world kickboxing champion, or champ in full contact karate... so maybe not the best example.

Also, saying MMA fighters aren't as skilled in isolated areas of fighting then claiming it as fact is not correct. Karo Parysian is an olympic trial runner up(at the age of 19 i think... hes like 22 now), There are BJJ black belts who are also world champs... Jeff Monson is a 3 time Abu Dabi heavyweight champ(Abu Dhabi is the considered the most prestigeous submission grappling tournament in the world). Jeff is also a pro boxer with a 4-0 record. Many wrestlers in the UFC were either champs in their state, were very successfull in the NCAA, or were in the olympics... I belive Chuck Liddell was a world champ kickboxer, though I could be wrong... I mean no disrespect on to you and I definitly admire your logical and "stick to the thread" type posting(which is rare around here).

__________________
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. - Phillipians 4:13

J-Luck

OOOO... I forgot... AA is a world Sambo champ... I'm not too sure about all the BJJ guys... I know there are a few who have won some world tournaments... and im especially not so sure about strikers... but can look it up if you like.

__________________
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. - Phillipians 4:13

Uke

I don't know what kind of skewed view that you may have about boxing, but if its anything like what you do here, I can understand how you're lost.

Mickey Ward a good boxer? Arturo smashed him twice in two different matches and even he is just a decent boxer. I've told you this before, you should seriously learn something about anything before commenting on it.

I'm sure that you might look up his record and then dub yourself "informed", but you once again have no idea what you're talking about. There are boxers with undefeated records who just as many fights as Ward, but are terrible boxers, like Glen Kelly (31-3-1) Its called "padding a record".

The only reason I would waste my time even acknowledging you is because I know that some folks who may not know that might read what you wrote and be mislead by your ignorance about fighting itself.

__________________
A solar panel 100 miles by 100 miles (161x161km) in the Mojave Desert (USA) could replace all the coal now burned to generate electricity in the entire U.S.

jubaji

What was your pro record, pUke?

__________________
Optional signature you may use to appear at bottom of your posts.

Sagacious Lu

In other words you think the boxers must be better athletes than the MMA because they make so much more, yet at the same time there are exceptional TMA all over the place that prefer to grind out a living running a small business when they could be making hundreds of thousands of dollars in MMA. Make up your mind, if you want to take an economical view that's your business but at least keep your logic consistant



This is ridiculous. It's simple supply and demand. There are thousands of amatuer fighters who pay gym fees and work their ass off day-dreaming about making big bucks as a pro. By contrast there is only enough demand for the very best to succeed. Terrible boxers never even make it into the pros. In the pros even the cans have exceptional skills compared to an amateur.


It's easy to talk big about boxing but the competition is very stiff and succeeding even at the amateur level in the sport is an impressive athletic feat by any reasonable standard. The fact is the amount of time, hard work, talent and discipline it takes to be a Golden Glove winner would make you a star student in any TMA school. You can't just dismiss Golden Glove champions (let alone PROFESSIONALS) and expect to be taken seriously if you can't do better yourself.

__________________

Uke

Our conversation has taken a turn. It seems that now it has become about defining the term "great", and not about who's skills belong in the category. We can use many terms. Great. Proficient. Upper level. Degree of mastery. But I'd prefer to look at it like this: If you were to take either of the men into a boxing gym where serious dedicated boxers trained, this argument wouldn't even be necessary. It would be obvious.

People here have no idea how easy it is to get a pro card. Many people come right out of jail, train hard, get a pro card, knock a couple of opponents out, to pad their record, and never get anywhere. Getting a pro card isn't like spending years to master anything. Anyone can get one, but not everyone can make a career out of what they do. While you'd like to suggest that I'd have to be a trainer to know these things, I'd like to suggest that you have never been around the game if you didn't know this little piece common knowledge. You act as if having a pro card makes you a great boxer.

My lawyer Marty Garfield, who happens to be a fight promoter, has many guys who are pros. And he'll be the first to tell you that having a pro means nothing if the guy just shows up to collect a check. Some boxers know tey aren't good enough to be players with the real deals, so they are content just showing up, getting beat down, and collecting their checks.

The minute that you began arguing that Frye was a great boxer I knew not to expect much from the debate. But I guess its given you some measure of satisfaction to assume what I do and don't know. Maybe we have different ideas about what skills are. I guess maybe the "kind" of people I'm around are different than the "kind" of people your around, and therefore you see boxing through TOTALLY different eyes. I suspect that I've just figured out why two people can see two different things. I'm thinking now that the people you train with probably share your ideas about boxing, and that's probably why those kinds of people don't excel at it.

It makes a lot of sense.

__________________
A solar panel 100 miles by 100 miles (161x161km) in the Mojave Desert (USA) could replace all the coal now burned to generate electricity in the entire U.S.

jubaji

What was your pro record, pUke?

__________________
Optional signature you may use to appear at bottom of your posts.

Sagacious Lu

It looks to me like you're resorting to name dropping and personal attacks on Tom because you're full of hot air. Sure, we'll just take your word for it, after all it must be golden if your lawyer told you it was true

__________________

Uke

First, there is no "other words". You're paraphrasing what I said obviously because you misunderstood from the beginning. When people start of with "in other words", its usually because they're fishing for a argument. I did not say anyone was better athletes. MMA fighters are actually excellent athletes, and you can find me stating that above. They are not however, excellent boxers. There's just no debating that. If you believe that they are, then all of your knowledge of boxing comes from watching MMA.

Now a far as consistent logic, the MMA fighters who are already involved and training for competition could easily make the transition to boxing had they possessed the boxing skills that some claim they do. How many TMA fighters are in UFC type events? Few are, and the ones that are are usually the ones who excel. Chuck Lidell. Nogueira. CroCop. Fedor. The majority of the fighters, but not all, that you see in today's UFC type events got most of their training and fighting style from MMA trainers. They're young guys who are in excellent shape who are taught to fight like Thai fighters who can grapple. Period. Many of the TMA guys who you say could just waltz in and earn money aren't in competitive shape and have no plan to get into that shape. MMA fighters are already in shape. Better shape than some boxers. How is that inconsistent? Or is it that once again you just didn't see that?

You say that terrible boxers never make it to the pros? Again, you confirm your lack of knowledge about the sport of boxing. There are pros that you'll NEVER hear of. Club fighters and journeyman who are around only to be paid as opponents to pad records. There are pro boxers that have other jobs because they can't pay bills with the money they make from boxing. I bet you don't even know how to get a pro card, let alone how easy it is to do. Investigate and learn something!

How have I dismissed anyone? I never took away anything from Golden Gloves boxers. I simply stated that winning a GG championship does not make a great boxer. That doesn't reflect on determination, hard work, disclipline or talent. It only refers to skill, which is seperate from those other 4 attributes. You assume what I can and cannot do because I, unlike many of you, do not feel the need to boast and spread my accomplishments on an internet forum. Unlike many of you, I'm not selling anything and more than that, I am not even trying to promote anything. But that doesn't mean that I will not comment.

To be honest, other than by what you write, none of you have any credibilty here. You might think you do, but you don't. This is an internet forum where you will never know what I can do, and vice versa, but when your posts demonstrate a clear lack of understanding, don't be angered when others comment on it. You sound foolish by stating what I cannot or better yet have not accomplished. I have never asked what you've done or accomplished because I don't care about you. But here, just like on the issue of the human shield, you demonstrated such a lack of understanding about such a simple method and concept that it was no assumption that you argue much, but know little.

I can't state enough that most of you should learn something about a thing before you argue the merits of it. I welcome all opinions, buut informed opinions are prefered. Its clear that Sagacious Lu has no idea how easy it is to get a pro card. He clearly thinks that anyone who does is an accomplished boxer. And he clearly thinks that because he has a computer at hime that he knows what other people have done, trained in, and for how long. This would qualify as someone debating to debate, not because he has any shadow of an idea about what is being discussed.

Good luck with that, Sagacious Lu

I'm done on this topic. I had hoped something would come from this debate, but when no one can seems to know about the subject matter, ist time to call it a day.

__________________
A solar panel 100 miles by 100 miles (161x161km) in the Mojave Desert (USA) could replace all the coal now burned to generate electricity in the entire U.S.