Amish School shooting? - Page 2

treelizard · 10-03-2006, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

Tree, teachers are some of the most busiest people around.

When they aren't in class, they are spending a significant amount of time grading and writing lesson plans; I'm sure the mix of grading/planning changes as you teach different grades.

Training a teacher to be a successful security person would wear them out. Maybe not all teachers, but most.

Why is it that so many teachers and aspiring teachers I know are spending time and money to get training to handle classroom situations they may have to deal with? And yeah, that's different than training them to be security people.

treelizard · 10-03-2006, 07:18 PM

Here's an idea! Maybe all of the tactical experts on this forum who think that teachers aren't interested in keeping their students safe (even though they are working at sub-standard pay and taking money out of their own pockets to buy teaching tools the schools don't provide) maybe you can volunteer your time and offer a workshop and see how many of these teachers show up before assuming they'd be too busy or your training would be ineffective. Teach them what you'd want them to know if YOUR kids were in that classroom, while you're waiting for the schools to hire these expensive security guards right away.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem, baby.

Tom Yum · 10-03-2006, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treelizard

Here's an idea! Maybe all of the tactical experts on this forum who think that teachers aren't interested in keeping their students safe (even though they are working at sub-standard pay and taking money out of their own pockets to buy teaching tools the schools don't provide) maybe you can volunteer your time and offer a workshop and see how many of these teachers show up before assuming they'd be too busy or your training would be ineffective. Teach them what you'd want them to know if YOUR kids were in that classroom, while you're waiting for the schools to hire these expensive security guards right away.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem, baby.

As an outsider wandering into this topic, I think that teaching classroom management is a great idea that could be tacked onto the security program, like the one Mike mentioned. Teachers could receive certificates after successfully completing a certain number of seminars and demonstrating said skills.

There's more to it: The security folks could provide local police with intelligence on criminal youth activity.

Tax payers would get more for their money.

I think basic negotiation skills, first-aid, crowd control etc. would definitely keep kids safer in a chaotic situation, versus no training. But the bottom line is that someone with a high-powered rifle shouldn't have the ability to get within school grounds and no teacher (unless they are armed) would be able to stop such an individual.

To enlist this kind of prevention would require highly trained personnel; skills that most teachers could not pick up in a few seminars.

treelizard · 10-03-2006, 08:30 PM

Classroom management is taught in every teacher education program. Teachers are more likely to use this than security guards would because teachers are more likely to need to manage a classroom and because there aren't often security guards in the classroom... unless you want to replace all the teachers with security guards. I don't know how well that would go over with the parents or the school district.

I'm pretty sure that security folks providing local police with intelligence on students is in violation of the students FERPA rights.

Unarmed teachers can and have stopped people with weapons.

Again I ask, is it better to learn skills that could stop incidents often before they occur and save the lives of students, teachers and others, or to twiddle your thimbs waiting for school districts to hire highly trained personnel when they continue to refuse to do so?

Tom Yum · 10-03-2006, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treelizard

Classroom management is taught in every teacher education program. Teachers are more likely to use this than security guards would because teachers are more likely to need to manage a classroom and because there aren't often security guards in the classroom... unless you want to replace all the teachers with security guards. I don't know how well that would go over with the parents or the school district.

Teachers would get training in the areas you are suggesting, i.e. basic negotiations, first aid etc. As Mike mentioned these guys aren't 'security guards' in the sense that they are wearing riot gear, bullet proof vests, carrying M-60s or anything, they're in suits, they have communication, and lighter fire power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by treelizard

I'm pretty sure that security folks providing local police with intelligence on students is in violation of the students FERPA rights.

Sure, I guess every school can use a little gang activity...

Let the parents decide how much they want over the next PTA meeting...

Quote:

Originally Posted by treelizard

Unarmed teachers can and have stopped people with weapons.

and therefore all unarmed teachers can stop people with weapons? Most of us (self-included) would rather get the hell away if something like Columbine or even this quaker shooting were to happen again.

treelizard · 10-03-2006, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

Teachers would get training in the areas you are suggesting, i.e. basic negotiations, first aid etc. As Mike mentioned these guys aren't 'security guards' in the sense that they are wearing riot gear, bullet proof vests, carrying M-60s or anything, they're in suits, they have communication, and lighter fire power.

And as I mentioned, Mike's hypothetical security forces aren't in the schools.

Quote:

Sure, I guess every school can use a little gang activity...

Let the parents decide how much they want over the next PTA meeting...

Oh, I see, so you're going to magically change the FERPA laws while installing your hypothetical security guards in the schools as well. If you can do that, why not just wave your magic wand and make the murderers disappear instead?

Quote:

and therefore all unarmed teachers can stop people with weapons? Most of us (self-included) would rather get the hell away if something like Columbine or even this quaker shooting were to happen again.

If you would leave a bunch of seven-year-old students alone to get shot execution-style, maybe you're not qualified to comment on security in the school systems.

Tom Yum · 10-03-2006, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treelizard

And as I mentioned, Mike's hypothetical security forces aren't in the schools..

This is true. It was just an idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by treelizard

Oh, I see, so you're going to magically change the FERPA laws while installing your hypothetical security guards in the schools as well. If you can do that, why not just wave your magic wand and make the murderers disappear instead?.

I didn't comment on the FERPA laws.

The security program didn't include magic wands, but they could if you'd like. But you can't buy magic wands without buying a top hat; maybe a white rabbit etc.

Making figures dissapear isn't much of a magic trick. You can press the delete button and get the same effect. An alternative would be to use the backspace button.

Now say you had numbers written on cards, then you made the ink dissapear or the cards - now we're gettin' somewhere!

Quote:

Originally Posted by treelizard

If you would leave a bunch of seven-year-old students alone to get shot execution-style, maybe you're not qualified to comment on security in the school systems.

I'm not qualified to comment on security in the school systems, mostly because of my lack of security experience; you are obviously a noble woman.

I wish teachers would have been as pro-active about security in school like you are when I went; they had opinions but never put anything together.

treelizard · 10-04-2006, 12:38 AM

Actually, what you said (after I listed no less than 10 things that teachers could do) was to hire a security force which would require training most security doesn't get, an overhaul of privacy laws, an overhaul of affirmative action policies and "snips and folds" in an already overstretched school budget.

While you sit around idealizing fantasy security forces, some of us are going to have to work in these schools and I don't appreciate you referring to teachers as too busy to take measures that would make themselves and their students safer, or the sad, sorry reasoning that teachers should either sit around waiting for your mythical security team to show up or do nothing.

treelizard · 10-04-2006, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

I'm not qualified to comment on security in the school systems, mostly because of my lack of security experience; you are obviously a noble woman.

I wish teachers would have been as pro-active about security in school like you are when I went; they had opinions but never put anything together.

Actually, I haven't even done anything yet. Just looking at options. Realistic ones.

Tom Yum · 10-04-2006, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treelizard

While you sit around idealizing fantasy security forces, some of us are going to have to work in these schools and I don't appreciate you referring to teachers as too busy to take measures that would make themselves and their students safer, or the sad, sorry reasoning that teachers should either sit around waiting for your mythical security team to show up or do nothing.

I would assume that the school Principal would be the one to talk to? I mean if you want to know what options you have to improve security in your classrooms, the prinicpal would be the one directing the program, right?

treelizard · 10-04-2006, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

I would assume that the school Principal would be the one to talk to? I mean if you want to know what options you have to improve security in your classrooms, the prinicpal would be the one directing the program, right?

Yes, one of them, and if you go back to post #2, you'll see that I mentioned understanding local laws and school district regulations, as well as practicing school evacuation drills and looking at the building layout.

jubaji · 10-04-2006, 01:24 AM

School systems would have to be personally at the end of a gun to part with the money they use to maintain their clubby, inefficient bureaucracy, and most teachers are hugely out of shape specimens who would demand to be paid for their time even if training were provided for free.

Then the teacher's union would sue the state the first time Ms. Outtashapeybody hurt herself slamming the emaciated Mr. Cantliftpencil into the dirty mat where they would all contact herpes and then file a second round of lawsuits, etc, etc, etc.

You wanna empower somebody, empower the students. Get the school athletes together to form a student security club, require them to accept and 'train' anyone, boy, girl, or chessclub thing, who wanted to join (overseen by the school wrestling coach, naturally), and give them extra credits or a letter of recommendation from the state governor or something for their participation and generally get the kids to watch their own backs. The know a hell of a lot more about what's about to go down on a given day than any teacher or administrator or rent-a-cop anyway...

treelizard · 10-04-2006, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jubaji

School systems would have to be personally at the end of a gun to part with the money they use to maintain their clubby, inefficient bureaucracy, and most teachers are hugely out of shape specimens who would demand to be paid for their time even if training were provided for free.

LOL, I guess all the ones who are paying money for courses people I know are putting together don't exist either. One of the schools I used to volunteer at had four or five teachers (all women) training in SD with the wrestling coach after school was out on their own time. Not sure if they were paying or not.

Your suggestion at least made me smile, though.

jubaji · 10-04-2006, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treelizard

LOL, I guess all the ones who are paying money for courses people I know are putting together don't exist either. One of the schools I used to volunteer at had four or five teachers (all women) training in SD with the wrestling coach after school was out on their own time. Not sure if they were paying or not..

Oh, they exist. They exist in the minority.

Quote:

Originally Posted by treelizard

Your suggestion at least made me smile, though.

I'll take that!

treelizard · 10-04-2006, 01:56 AM

Actually, I'd say the vast majority of teachers that I've met put a huge amount of their own unpaid time into their jobs... and I still think it'd be tremendously useful to provide SOME training for teachers that are interested to have more options in crazy scenarios that might arise, even if it was just a small percentage of teachers.

10-03-2006, 07:18 PM	#17 (permalink)
treelizard Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: the desert Posts: 3,442 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Here's an idea! Maybe all of the tactical experts on this forum who think that teachers aren't interested in keeping their students safe (even though they are working at sub-standard pay and taking money out of their own pockets to buy teaching tools the schools don't provide) maybe you can volunteer your time and offer a workshop and see how many of these teachers show up before assuming they'd be too busy or your training would be ineffective. Teach them what you'd want them to know if YOUR kids were in that classroom, while you're waiting for the schools to hire these expensive security guards right away. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem, baby. __________________ http://www.dirttime.org http://morewomeninmma.blogspot.com

10-03-2006, 08:30 PM	#19 (permalink)
treelizard Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: the desert Posts: 3,442 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Classroom management is taught in every teacher education program. Teachers are more likely to use this than security guards would because teachers are more likely to need to manage a classroom and because there aren't often security guards in the classroom... unless you want to replace all the teachers with security guards. I don't know how well that would go over with the parents or the school district. I'm pretty sure that security folks providing local police with intelligence on students is in violation of the students FERPA rights. Unarmed teachers can and have stopped people with weapons. Again I ask, is it better to learn skills that could stop incidents often before they occur and save the lives of students, teachers and others, or to twiddle your thimbs waiting for school districts to hire highly trained personnel when they continue to refuse to do so? __________________ http://www.dirttime.org http://morewomeninmma.blogspot.com

10-04-2006, 12:38 AM	#23 (permalink)
treelizard Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: the desert Posts: 3,442 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Actually, what you said (after I listed no less than 10 things that teachers could do) was to hire a security force which would require training most security doesn't get, an overhaul of privacy laws, an overhaul of affirmative action policies and "snips and folds" in an already overstretched school budget. While you sit around idealizing fantasy security forces, some of us are going to have to work in these schools and I don't appreciate you referring to teachers as too busy to take measures that would make themselves and their students safer, or the sad, sorry reasoning that teachers should either sit around waiting for your mythical security team to show up or do nothing. __________________ http://www.dirttime.org http://morewomeninmma.blogspot.com

10-04-2006, 01:24 AM	#27 (permalink)
jubaji Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: koko Posts: 8,794 Groans: 0 Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post	School systems would have to be personally at the end of a gun to part with the money they use to maintain their clubby, inefficient bureaucracy, and most teachers are hugely out of shape specimens who would demand to be paid for their time even if training were provided for free. Then the teacher's union would sue the state the first time Ms. Outtashapeybody hurt herself slamming the emaciated Mr. Cantliftpencil into the dirty mat where they would all contact herpes and then file a second round of lawsuits, etc, etc, etc. You wanna empower somebody, empower the students. Get the school athletes together to form a student security club, require them to accept and 'train' anyone, boy, girl, or chessclub thing, who wanted to join (overseen by the school wrestling coach, naturally), and give them extra credits or a letter of recommendation from the state governor or something for their participation and generally get the kids to watch their own backs. The know a hell of a lot more about what's about to go down on a given day than any teacher or administrator or rent-a-cop anyway... __________________ Optional signature you may use to appear at bottom of your posts.

10-04-2006, 01:56 AM	#30 (permalink)
treelizard Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: the desert Posts: 3,442 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Actually, I'd say the vast majority of teachers that I've met put a huge amount of their own unpaid time into their jobs... and I still think it'd be tremendously useful to provide SOME training for teachers that are interested to have more options in crazy scenarios that might arise, even if it was just a small percentage of teachers. __________________ http://www.dirttime.org http://morewomeninmma.blogspot.com

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