Ego

jubaji · 01-27-2007, 02:04 AM

Is there something inherent in MA that creates such big egos as the ones on display here?

We've all seen it: Folks who just have to believe that their art or system or approach is the end-all-be-all, folks who just lose it if the image they have created by themselves of themselves is challenged in any way (this type has often trained more in the library than anywhere else), folks who hide behind fantastic claims that cannot be verified, folks who have constructed theories of how they demand the world to be and who take personal offense when acceptance of their personal dogma is not universal. And yes, folks who seem to think that they can build themselves up by knocking everyone else down (I know, I know).

Heck, even the folks who make an overly dramatic show of playing "I love all, for I have found the peace in my soul" are exhibiting their own manifestation of ego. Trying to wear their own image of themselves and loving the act a little too much.

I'm obviously no more immune to this than anyone else, but is it something about MA that draws people like this? Or does it create them? Or is just everyone like this?

osopardo · 01-27-2007, 02:36 AM

Maybe not so much ego as insecurity. And yes, it would follow that an insecure person would be more likely to compensate for their insecurities by studying martial arts in some form or another.

Imagine the devastating blow to their sense of security when confronted with the notion that the decision they made regarding which art to study or which belief system to follow, is not the ultimate cure-all for their perceived shortcomings. Faced with that possibilty it would be natural for some people to become obstinately defensive and close-minded.

Consider by contrast those old-school individuals who by life experience or personality know they can effectively defend themselves in a fight, can appreciate the prowess of a professional fighter as a sportsman and can go through life feeling no insecurity and no need to "study" martial arts. These are the types of people who would tend to be more rational in discussion of martial arts because they're not persoally vested. These are the types of people who will usually respond to the premise that one style is superior to another by stating that "it depends on the fighter" (not the style).

Mr. Arieson · 01-27-2007, 01:16 PM

It's not just with martial arts, Jubaji, it's also with religion and especially politics. Even when exposed to incontrovertable evidence that proves scientifically something is incorrect, a hard core conservative republican or rabid, socialist far-left democrat will NEVER change thier mind. They will almost always find a way to twist facts to support thier original opinion.

jubaji · 01-27-2007, 01:49 PM

That's a whole 'nother kettle of fish!

**kingoftheforest** · 01-27-2007, 02:47 PM

I think it boils down to the fact that if someone is very confident in anything they believe in then they will defend it.

Religion ,MA, Sports teams and even comic book heroes. I have seen people argue all these things fanatically.

Religion and belief in government lead people to war all the time. That's got to be a huge Ego trip for some people.

Sagacious Lu · 01-27-2007, 04:45 PM

Martial artists are fighters; fighters thrive on confrontation, they're highly competitive and they hate to admit defeat. I think to some degree it's a natural by-product of the personality types that are attracted to violence. Especially when you add that teachers are generally used to people treating them as authorities because all day every day people come to them to learn. Whether it's a high school teacher, a professor or a coach they're job is to be the expert in their field, and whether they mean for it to or not that's going to effect their attitude when they're talking about things in their area of expertise. When you put the fighter's personality together with a teacher's faith and pride in themselves as a professional it makes for a volatile combination.

IPON · 01-27-2007, 05:54 PM

Like others have said it is not just MAs. The very nature of being passionate about something also breeds sensitivity about the items of passion. I have seen comics die on stage and they will constantly say “that crowd was stupid” when in reality the bit wasn’t funny. I think it is the most difficult for people to be objective and in MAs there are instances where the lack of objectivity can cost your health or life so the stakes are higher. It really is sad because MAs, as in life, is about the journey not having tunnel vision. Now with that said there are instances where people clearly don’t know what they are talking about. There are people that truly believe a loud yell from 20 paces will knockout 20 people. The key is to recognize the pattern and realize that there is a point where discussion ends and simply end the discussion or do not participate.

Tom Yum · 01-27-2007, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagacious Lu

Whether it's a high school teacher, a professor or a coach they're job is to be the expert in their field, and whether they mean for it to or not that's going to effect their attitude when they're talking about things in their area of expertise. When you put the fighter's personality together with a teacher's faith and pride in themselves as a professional it makes for a volatile combination.

Lu, that's a jewel right there!

Not trying to contradict what you've said, but I've met some instructors who are almost selfless in their passion. And what I mean by that is that they have almost no ego - you would think the opposite given their nature, but will step up when they have to...

Tom Yum · 01-27-2007, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IPON

The key is to recognize the pattern and realize that there is a point where discussion ends and simply end the discussion or do not participate.

To agree to disagree and move on, right?

But that requires that both sides can exist comfortably in their differences.

When one cannot, they start attacking/bullying the other and the cycle continues.

treelizard · 01-28-2007, 02:16 AM

I think a lot of people sign up for MA because of fear, insecurity, etc. and so on and also because they want to defend themselves. Then they get to wear pajamas and learn musical katas and buy patches. Maybe they know on some level that their art isn't helping them overcome their fear/insecurity/etc. and they're not learning how to defend themselves, but there's some cognitive dissonance because they've put so much time and money into it. So they forget why they're there and decide they want to be higher ranked, or whatnot. And they get pretty riled if anybody challenges them or makes fun of their art.

I think there's also a tendency for conspiracy theorists to get involved in MA and spend a lot of time imagining dramas in their classes like they imagine potential situations they are training for.

7r14ngL3Ch0k3 · 01-28-2007, 02:22 AM

Do any of you notice when youre in class or at work, and you or someone mentions something about martial Arts or fighting or even 'ultimate fighting', some people almost start getting defensive? I cant really explain it but it seems to me that everyone wants to have some sort of fighting skill and they want others to know it...

Tom Yum · 01-28-2007, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7r14ngL3Ch0k3

Do any of you notice when youre in class or at work, and you or someone mentions something about martial Arts or fighting or even 'ultimate fighting', some people almost start getting defensive? I cant really explain it but it seems to me that everyone wants to have some sort of fighting skill and they want others to know it...

I don't talk about MA unless someone asks; usually it comes around when talking either about sports or something related - even then, I don't really engage the conversation much.

DickHardman · 01-28-2007, 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jubaji

I
We've all seen it: Folks who just have to believe that their art or system or approach is the end-all-be-all, folks who just lose it if the image they have created by themselves of themselves is challenged in any way (this type has often trained more in the library than anywhere else), folks who hide behind fantastic claims that cannot be verified, folks who have constructed theories of how they demand the world to be and who take personal offense when acceptance of their personal dogma is not universal. And yes, folks who seem to think that they can build themselves up by knocking everyone else down (I know, I know).

Heck, even the folks who make an overly dramatic show of playing "I love all, for I have found the peace in my soul" are exhibiting their own manifestation of ego. Trying to wear their own image of themselves and loving the act a little too much.

first off, can you name some names?

second, you forgot to mention those who like to pretend to be handicapped people online to get attention.

DickHardman · 01-28-2007, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

I don't talk about MA unless someone asks; usually it comes around when talking either about sports or something related - even then, I don't really engage the conversation much.

yeah i dont really like talking about it either, as most people will think you are trying to act tough or something anyway.

Tom Yum · 01-28-2007, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treelizard

I think a lot of people sign up for MA because of fear, insecurity, etc. and so on and also because they want to defend themselves. Then they get to wear pajamas and learn musical katas and buy patches. Maybe they know on some level that their art isn't helping them overcome their fear/insecurity/etc. and they're not learning how to defend themselves, but there's some cognitive dissonance because they've put so much time and money into it. So they forget why they're there and decide they want to be higher ranked, or whatnot. And they get pretty riled if anybody challenges them or makes fun of their art.

Its more about what the individual does than the system they're in, right?

GM Mas Oyama - The founder of Kyokushin Karate.

GM He Il Cho, GM Jhoon Rhee - Tae kwon do GM's; Rhee taught Bruce Lee how to kick.

Serkhan Yilmaz (3rd Dan BB?) Tae kwon do - Fights in K-1. Half of his wins are by KO (against muaythai fighters).

Manson Gibson (gong-fu) - Fought in muaythai; probably one of the first fighters to put the side kick, spinning kicks and spinning backfists to work against muay thai fighters. Has fought decently against higher named MT fighters and won a few by KO, has lost about as many fights as he won.

Judo Gene Labelle (judo/wrestling) - Fought in one of America's first televized (played on radio, actually) MMA matches against Milo Savage, one of the top middleweight boxers of the 50's. Wouldn't want to get into Judo Gene's grip...

He employs weapons in his grappling work as well.

Bolo Yeung - well he's not a ring fighter, but he's one of China's former powerlifting champions and an experienced practitioner of several styles of gong-fu. I bet he hits hard...

Bill "superfoot" Wallace - Okinawa Goju karate fighter, whose not only a decent boxer but throws kicks at 60 mph - he was one of the pioneers of full contact karate and could give a beat down.

Jay Lee (6th Dan BB - Kuk Sool Won) - He's done some H2H work with the police...

There are countless others as well, whose names I can't think of at the moment but who put their traditional arts to work.

01-27-2007, 02:04 AM	#1 (permalink)
jubaji Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: koko Posts: 8,794 Groans: 0 Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post	Ego Is there something inherent in MA that creates such big egos as the ones on display here? We've all seen it: Folks who just have to believe that their art or system or approach is the end-all-be-all, folks who just lose it if the image they have created by themselves of themselves is challenged in any way (this type has often trained more in the library than anywhere else), folks who hide behind fantastic claims that cannot be verified, folks who have constructed theories of how they demand the world to be and who take personal offense when acceptance of their personal dogma is not universal. And yes, folks who seem to think that they can build themselves up by knocking everyone else down (I know, I know). Heck, even the folks who make an overly dramatic show of playing "I love all, for I have found the peace in my soul" are exhibiting their own manifestation of ego. Trying to wear their own image of themselves and loving the act a little too much. I'm obviously no more immune to this than anyone else, but is it something about MA that draws people like this? Or does it create them? Or is just everyone like this? __________________ Optional signature you may use to appear at bottom of your posts.

01-27-2007, 02:36 AM	#2 (permalink)
osopardo Registered User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Hurricane Alley Posts: 170,033 Posts: 1,920 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Maybe not so much ego as insecurity. And yes, it would follow that an insecure person would be more likely to compensate for their insecurities by studying martial arts in some form or another. Imagine the devastating blow to their sense of security when confronted with the notion that the decision they made regarding which art to study or which belief system to follow, is not the ultimate cure-all for their perceived shortcomings. Faced with that possibilty it would be natural for some people to become obstinately defensive and close-minded. Consider by contrast those old-school individuals who by life experience or personality know they can effectively defend themselves in a fight, can appreciate the prowess of a professional fighter as a sportsman and can go through life feeling no insecurity and no need to "study" martial arts. These are the types of people who would tend to be more rational in discussion of martial arts because they're not persoally vested. These are the types of people who will usually respond to the premise that one style is superior to another by stating that "it depends on the fighter" (not the style). __________________ Le Bear Extraordinaire! *Mike Brewer's 2008 Athleticon Challenge!!!* Pushups Completed: 5 1/2 Situps Completed: Does using my hands count?

01-27-2007, 01:49 PM	#4 (permalink)
jubaji Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: koko Posts: 8,794 Groans: 0 Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post	That's a whole 'nother kettle of fish! __________________ Optional signature you may use to appear at bottom of your posts.

01-27-2007, 02:47 PM	#5 (permalink)
kingoftheforest Premiere Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: In the forest of course Posts: 1,389 Groans: 1 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	In a sense I think it boils down to the fact that if someone is very confident in anything they believe in then they will defend it. Religion ,MA, Sports teams and even comic book heroes. I have seen people argue all these things fanatically. Religion and belief in government lead people to war all the time. That's got to be a huge Ego trip for some people. __________________ The actions one takes are answered by consequences waiting at their conclusion. There are no exceptions. http://destructionscreation.deviantart.com/gallery/

01-27-2007, 04:45 PM	#6 (permalink)
Sagacious Lu Registered User Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Liangshan Marsh Posts: 1,062 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Martial artists are fighters; fighters thrive on confrontation, they're highly competitive and they hate to admit defeat. I think to some degree it's a natural by-product of the personality types that are attracted to violence. Especially when you add that teachers are generally used to people treating them as authorities because all day every day people come to them to learn. Whether it's a high school teacher, a professor or a coach they're job is to be the expert in their field, and whether they mean for it to or not that's going to effect their attitude when they're talking about things in their area of expertise. When you put the fighter's personality together with a teacher's faith and pride in themselves as a professional it makes for a volatile combination. __________________

01-27-2007, 01:16 PM	#3 (permalink)
Mr. Arieson Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,028 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	It's not just with martial arts, Jubaji, it's also with religion and especially politics. Even when exposed to incontrovertable evidence that proves scientifically something is incorrect, a hard core conservative republican or rabid, socialist far-left democrat will NEVER change thier mind. They will almost always find a way to twist facts to support thier original opinion.

01-27-2007, 05:54 PM	#7 (permalink)
IPON Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NYC Posts: 1,568 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Like others have said it is not just MAs. The very nature of being passionate about something also breeds sensitivity about the items of passion. I have seen comics die on stage and they will constantly say “that crowd was stupid” when in reality the bit wasn’t funny. I think it is the most difficult for people to be objective and in MAs there are instances where the lack of objectivity can cost your health or life so the stakes are higher. It really is sad because MAs, as in life, is about the journey not having tunnel vision. Now with that said there are instances where people clearly don’t know what they are talking about. There are people that truly believe a loud yell from 20 paces will knockout 20 people. The key is to recognize the pattern and realize that there is a point where discussion ends and simply end the discussion or do not participate. __________________ A person who is said to be proficient in the arts is like a fool. Because of his foolishness in concerning himself with just one thing, he thinks of nothing else and thus becomes proficient. - Hagarkure

01-28-2007, 02:16 AM	#10 (permalink)
treelizard Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: the desert Posts: 3,442 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	I think a lot of people sign up for MA because of fear, insecurity, etc. and so on and also because they want to defend themselves. Then they get to wear pajamas and learn musical katas and buy patches. Maybe they know on some level that their art isn't helping them overcome their fear/insecurity/etc. and they're not learning how to defend themselves, but there's some cognitive dissonance because they've put so much time and money into it. So they forget why they're there and decide they want to be higher ranked, or whatnot. And they get pretty riled if anybody challenges them or makes fun of their art. I think there's also a tendency for conspiracy theorists to get involved in MA and spend a lot of time imagining dramas in their classes like they imagine potential situations they are training for. __________________ http://www.dirttime.org http://morewomeninmma.blogspot.com

01-28-2007, 02:22 AM	#11 (permalink)
7r14ngL3Ch0k3 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,514 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Do any of you notice when youre in class or at work, and you or someone mentions something about martial Arts or fighting or even 'ultimate fighting', some people almost start getting defensive? I cant really explain it but it seems to me that everyone wants to have some sort of fighting skill and they want others to know it...

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