BoarSpear

JALALABAD, Afghanistan (AP) — U.S. Marines fleeing a militant ambush Sunday opened fire on civilian cars and pedestrians on a busy highway in eastern Afghanistan, wounded Afghans said. Up to 16 people were killed and 34 wounded in the violence, officials said.

A suicide attacker detonated an explosives-filled minivan as the American convoy approached, then militant gunmen fired on the troops inside the vehicles, who returned fire, the U.S. military said.

As the Americans sped away, they treated every car and person along the highway as a potential attacker, said Mohammad Khan Katawazi, the district chief of Shinwar. But Maj. William Mitchell, a U.S. military spokesman, said those killed and injured may have been shot by the militants.

More than a half dozen Afghans recuperating from bullet wounds told The Associated Press that the U.S. forces fired indiscriminately along at least a 10-kilometer (six-mile) stretch of one of eastern Afghanistan's busiest highways — a route often filled not only with cars and trucks but Afghans on foot and bicycles.

"They were firing everywhere, and they even opened fire on 14 to 15 vehicles passing on the highway," said Tur Gul, 38, who was standing on the roadside by a gas station and was shot twice in his right hand. "They opened fire on everybody, the ones inside the vehicles and the ones on foot."

The casualty tolls varied widely. The Interior Ministry said that 10 people were killed.

The U.S. military said eight civilians were killed and 35 wounded, after earlier saying 16 were killed and 24 wounded. It did not explain the revised, lower death toll, saying only that the new figures were "the most accurate numbers to date." A U.S. soldier was also injured. The incident was under investigation, the military said.

"We certainly believe it's possible that the incoming fire from the ambush was wholly or partly responsible for the civilian casualties," Mitchell said.

Nangarhar provincial health chief Ajmel Pardus said eight people were killed, including a woman and two boys, and 34 were wounded. Four of the wounded were in critical condition, he said.

Interior Ministry spokesman Zemeri Bashary said the chief of the Interior Ministry's criminal division would lead a delegation to Nangarhar province on Monday to investigate. Bashary said it appeared that gunfire from the U.S. soldiers caused most of the casualties.

The gunfire from Americans prompted angry demonstrations in the region — just 50 kilometers (30 miles) west of the Pakistan border. Hundreds of Afghans blocked the road and threw rocks at police, with some demonstrators shouting "Death to America! Death to Karzai," a reference to President Hamid Karzai.

At the Jalalabad hospital, several victims said the American convoy approached them on the highway and opened fire. As the convoy neared, many cars pulled over to the side of the road, but were still hit by gunfire.

"When we parked our vehicle, when they passed us, they opened fire on our vehicle," said 15-year-old Mohammad Ishaq, who was hit by two bullets, in his left arm and his right ear. "It was a convoy of three American Humvees. All three humvees were firing around."

Ahmed Najib, 23, lay in the next bed, hit by a bullet in his right shoulder.

"One American was in the first vehicle, shouting to stop on the side of the road, and we stopped. The first vehicle did not fire on us, but the second opened fire on our car," Najib said, adding that his 2-year-old brother was grazed by a bullet on his cheek. "I saw them turning and firing in this direction, then turning and firing in that direction. I even saw a farmer shot by the Americans."

NATO and U.S. forces are often accused of firing at Afghan civilians they fear may be about to launch an attack. Though officials say the shootings are done in self defense, they often injure or kill innocent civilians. On Dec. 3, British troops speeding away from a suicide bomb attack in Kandahar city opened fire on cars, killing one civilian and wounding six others.

U.S. forces near Sunday's bombing later deleted photos taken by a freelance photographer working for The Associated Press and video taken by a freelancer working for AP Television News. Neither the photographer nor the cameraman witnessed the suicide attack or the subsequent gunfire. It was not immediately known why the soldiers deleted the photos and videos. The U.S. military didn't immediately comment on the matter.

The freelance photographer, Rahmat Gul, said he took photos of a four-wheel drive vehicle where three Afghans had been shot to death inside.

An American soldier then took Gul's camera and deleted the photos. Gul said he later received permission to take photos from another soldier, but that the first soldier came back and angrily told him to delete the photos again. Gul said the soldier then raised his fist as if he was going to strike Gul.

The U.S. forces involved in the attack and ensuing gunfire were part of the U.S.-led coalition, not NATO's International Security Assistance Force. An official who asked not to be identified said the troops were Marine Special Forces.

A man claiming to speak for Hezb-e-Islami, a group he said is linked with the Taliban, claimed responsibility for the bombing and identified the attacker as an Afghan named Haji Ihsanullah in a telephone call to AP. The spokesman said that the attack was carried out by a breakaway faction of Hezb-e-Islami that was once led by Younis Khalis, a former mujahedeen commander who died last year. The group is now believed to be led by a son of Khalis.

The purported spokesman, who identified himself as Qari Sajjad, said the explosion "destroyed two vehicles, killing or injuring American soldiers." Sajjad said the attack was in revenge for "cruel acts" done to Afghans by U.S. forces.

Lt. Col. David Accetta, a coalition spokesman, said the attack demonstrated the militants' "blatant disregard for human life" by attacking forces in a populated area. NATO officials repeatedly say that suicide bombs aimed at international and Afghan forces kill far more civilians than soldiers.

In southern Afghanistan, meanwhile, two soldiers were killed during a combat operation Saturday, though NATO's International Security Assistance Force did not identify their nationalities or say where the violence happened.

Helmand province, where British troops operate, has seen a number of clashes the last several weeks. Canada also has soldiers in the south, in neighboring Kandahar province.
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Where is the leadership, unit integrity and weapon control? This is EXACTLY how the bad guys wanted us to respond, hell they probably never dreamed it could turn out this well for them.

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BoarSpear

Welcome to the Digital Democracy...Bush's agenda is well covered by your posting....I choose to highlight the problems areas I see as needing addressing. Thought police for instance, piss me off.

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BoarSpear

Also, About 5 threads existed (with ZERO trolling) about the tourist before YOU started ANOTHER one (PURELY TROLLING) and called people names essentially picking a fight, then you whine and point fingers when you get a response...Why is that Mr Super moderator? Are all my post highlighting piss poor leadership while swaggering around throwing fuel on the fire hitting too close for comfort?

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BoarSpear

Yeah uhuh, you've done this little dance every time I posted about one of these, and every one has proven worse than I posted about...find me ONE that hasn't resulted in Convictions...I'm casting a light on an evident problem with leadership and training, this has too be addressed....LAST FUCKIN YEAR!! But NOOOO still it abounds...so yeah dammit I'm rubbing peoples noses in it!! Don't like it? Get involved in spreading the word, EMBARRASS the assholes in charge into acting, nothing else is gonna work....But by YOUR attitude Rapist arent the problem, its the people who report them...You really dont know how happy it makes me, you question MY character when I see yours.

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Tom Yum

You guys are like two heads on the same coin.

You've done similar things, forged from the same metal and are trying to make the world a better place....except that you guys face opposite directions.

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Uke

Well Tom, the true difference between them(as it pertains to political posts) is that one places value on the rights of the people including their right to be informed, take part in the process and have a true impact on how this country is run.

While the other is apparently completely fine with totalitarianism where Uncle Sam calls all the shots and the people are supposed to stand by, saluting the flag and asking no questions.

After a while, people get tired of listening to the most unscrupulous country on the planet righteously preach to the rest of the world about morals and ethics.

Most of one's articles demonstrate that the USA is launching "The New Crusades", but this time instead of pushing Christianity on the masses they're pushing democracy at the end of a barrel of a gun while simultaneously stripping the rights away from Americans.

Most of the other's articles and posts have to do with condoning and justifying those actions. Blind patriotism is comforting to most who need to believe that whatever role they've played in this conflict is holier than thou. It helps them believe that they were a cog in the magnificent machine known as "Securing American freedoms" even though this war has only served to steal away American rights and make the world a more dangerous place.

And in the end, they both profess to show support. One supports the war, while the other supports the troops but not the war. In other words, one supports politicians making significant decisions that don't reflect the will of the people, while the other supports the lives of men who have been led to fight and die under false pretenses.

I think you were right, Tom! They're so similar that no one will probably know which one is which.

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A solar panel 100 miles by 100 miles (161x161km) in the Mojave Desert (USA) could replace all the coal now burned to generate electricity in the entire U.S.

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Troll Virus

It's all a bit Deja Vu to me.

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eXcessiveForce

yeah if I didn't know better, reading boars stuff would be enough to turn me against all military people. Wonder why people don't treat vets with the respect the deserve? Here's why.

__________________
eXcessiveFORCE.

If you must use force, make it excessive.

www.b-prime.com
A success and achievement community

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Uke

I have no doubt that you have no problem with people being well informed. And I don't believe everything that anyone says. I do however, believe that after reading the bulk of what you write and what Boar writes, my above posts accurately describes both of you.

Its interesting to me that I used no names in the above post, yet you assumed that you were the one that I referred to when I wrote that one of you didn't want Americans to be well informed. Hmm ... telling.

Also, just a few facts.

1 - Boarspear is very seldom the author of the articles which you dispute. Journalists are. If his posting an opposing stance makes you respect him or his views less then I'm sure he'll lose sleep.

2 - I could be misunderstanding your point about the rapes and murders that occur. How would focusing on what happens domestically change your view of Boarspear? We(you and I) once spoke about what the US is doing in the Middle East. Let's revisit that discussion.

Who has a need to to support an agenda now? Instead of realizing that these countries are going through the same growing pains as most countries, the United States needs them to do it on our time table. So, we intervene, kill, torture, rape, and force democracy to begin the framework for a puppet regime where the politicians, lobbyists and big businessmen can pull the strings.

Then you try to pass off lies as facts by stating that the "moral leg" that we are standing on is that we learned more than a century ago that oppression was not the way to govern." Oppression in this country, at least legal oppression existed up until the last 40 years. What history books had you been reading?

I highlighted that conversation for one reason only: To demonstrate that you bend the truth and tell facts the way you want them to be received in order to convince people that we have a moral leg to stand on. That's an agenda. And treating the atrocities that America has committed with such a "Oh get over it" attitude shows that you feel its okay when we commit all SEVEN SINS for 400 years but God forbid that another country does the same for just 50.

__________________
A solar panel 100 miles by 100 miles (161x161km) in the Mojave Desert (USA) could replace all the coal now burned to generate electricity in the entire U.S.

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Tom Yum

I don't think our country is unscrupulous; I love my country and I would fight to defend it. Personally I do not see the war in Iraq as an urgent military action; it seems more strategic. I'm sure Bush has reasons for engaging the war - what they are is becoming less and less obvious from his original intent. And as far as I can tell from press releases, he did not follow the advice of his generals. Again, a reason why one would hope future Presidents come from stronger military backgrounds.


Boar comes from a long-line of military men, it seems. I suppose it makes sense that his family can compare their experiences and war politics with the commander in chief at the time, since he ultimately decides when and where we go to war - so it makes sense that he look at our current President, since this is his war.

I don't know to what extent our troops would be murderers or rapists, but when I hear stories about Marines or Soldiers firing into groups of people, its probably because some terrorist sh!t bag is using them as anonymous cover to fire off a weapon or an explosive at our men.

The civillians that die were never intended as the targets, but just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. I can see how the media would want to capitalize on this, since afterall, the media is a business and you either make money or go out of business. And a story titled "Iraqi Civillians Killed by US Soliders" will sell more papers among a liberal and anti-war subsription base, rather than a story titled "Soldiers Return Fire."

This is not a war like U.S./EU vs. Germany & Japan. The enemy is not clearly defined by uniform and fighting for their nation; they are fighting for an extremist cause - they wish death on infidel non-believers.

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eXcessiveForce

Let me help.


You can focus on the negative
You can focus on the positive


People who focus on the negative, drain energy from others, they perpetuate a feeling of negativity that others often find less than desirable.

Positive people can recognize that things may not always go according to plan but seek instead to find the things that are going right.


You find what you look for. If you want to find the horrors of the world you will find them, and if you search hard enough those horrors will be your life.

If you seek out the positive, the things that inspire, then those things will be your life.

You will also find that there will be a natural dislike between the two groups.

__________________
eXcessiveFORCE.

If you must use force, make it excessive.

www.b-prime.com
A success and achievement community

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Uke

If we are to judge by inhumane acts, our country ranks at the top. There has been a long history of slavery throughout the world, and very few have treated their slaves and inhumanely as the Americans. The slave trade is the obvious mark on this nation so I won't focus on that. Let's not forget the Salem Witch Trials, giving the small pox blankets to the indians, the manifest destiny, the Klan, the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiments, Jim Crow, introducing cocaine on a large scale to poor black communities, and all the raping, killing, torturing and subjugation that came along with those events. And that's just to name a few.

As far as Bush goes, he's given his reasons for war. None of which we've accomplished. But this isn't about that. This is about one man feeling as though another man's opinion is somehow less noble than his own. He does a pretty good job of shelling out bias that feeds his agenda as well.

You don't know, but you're more than comfortable enough to drum up suppositions? I'm not surprised. Its on this very same forum that people told me that they know that a mugger won't have trained as extensively as they have. Soldiers can't be low lifes anymore than a mugger can be a trained killer.

I have many friends who have been there and have said that if a friend dies next to you and all you feel is anger, its not hard to let off a barrage of ammo at anything that moves at that point because your grief overwhelms you. Its not just in Iraq. That a reality of war everywhere. If you think that hasn't happened dozens of times there in the span of time that we've occupied that region, then you are very naive.

They wish death on believers as well as is apparent when they kill among themselves. That "death to the infidels" deal has been done to death. The Al Qaeda is not the spokesperson for Iraq, or for Islam. That bullshit just makes it easier for us to do terrible things there because its easier to kill when you believe every person there hates you for not being different.

Could you imagine that Al Qaeda was only 10,000 strong? How could we justify doing what we've done? Look at what the American Media has done. They've dug up an old past about Iraq and Saddam to justify the unjustifiable: We invaded Iraq without and I quote "UN approval which made our subsequent invasion explicitly illegal under the UN Charter, under international law as agreed to by the U.S. through treaty (and hence also illegal under U.S. law), and under war crimes conventions that describe such aggressive war as the “supreme crime.”

That's the same thing that the American Media does when the American police shoot unarmed citizens 43 times. They dig up some old dirt about the victims that has nothing to do with the situation at hand to make the masses think that they were pieces of garbage and were probably engaged in some activity that warranted it. What the American Media did in Iraq was no different. A spin job is a spin job. Is there any wonder why Bush and Conde are looking to pass legislature that would exonerate the Bush administration when talks of bringing them up on war crimes started buzzing?

Really, I could care less to discuss politics here. I really only came to write my first post on this topic and only that.

__________________
A solar panel 100 miles by 100 miles (161x161km) in the Mojave Desert (USA) could replace all the coal now burned to generate electricity in the entire U.S.

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The_Judo_Jibboo

Have you ever read any Nietzsche, specifically any of his thoughts on "slave morality"? you can find the text of On the Genealogy of Morals for free online. Check out the first essay "Good and Bad," "Good and Evil". it's a good bit of light reading, as Nietzsche goes

here's the point, the logic you're following looks outside yourself to first define what is "evil". "good" then comes about as that which is opposed to evil. basically this means you're ok as long as you're less evil than the evil guys. this is "slave morality".

Boar's logic is the logic of the ancient Greeks. you look at yourself to determine what is good. that standard you come up with is not held in relation to what other's do. it is absolute. no matter how many planes they fly into our buildings, it's still wrong to rape, it's still wrong to drive down 5 miles of highway shooting bystanders because you're scared, it's still wrong to steal f***ing candy from babies.

The most powerful military in the world must hold itself to higher standards than average men. if you're attacked in a dark alley by three men with weapons, it's ok to fight dirty. by all means kick, scratch, bite, grab a handful of nuts and twist. but a war, an invasion, is different. if we can't accomplish in Iraq what we want to accomplish while at the same time never compromising the unwavering standards of goodness we have established for ourselves, we have no business there. if we compromise, there is no outcome but violence forever.

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"When the enemy comes, welcome him. When he goes, send him on his way."


So the real message here is that in a SD situation you should always take off your trousers...
-jubaji

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Uke

Great post, Judo Jibboo.

__________________
A solar panel 100 miles by 100 miles (161x161km) in the Mojave Desert (USA) could replace all the coal now burned to generate electricity in the entire U.S.

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The_Judo_Jibboo

Thank you sir

http://www.mala.bc.ca/~johnstoi/Niet...genealogy1.htm and here's the essay i'm talking about if anyone's interested. i own the book so i don't know how great this specific translation is but i'm sure it'll at least get the ideas across.

__________________
"When the enemy comes, welcome him. When he goes, send him on his way."


So the real message here is that in a SD situation you should always take off your trousers...
-jubaji

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