The Battle for Iraq is About Oil and Democracy, Not Religion! - Page 3

Tom Yum · 09-16-2007, 04:07 PM

Since this discussion started involves oil, democracy and war - I'd like to chip in my 2 baht here, since that's the going rate of my brain power at the moment...lol

Fuels make up more than 60% of crude oil demand in the United States.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/p...ons_sector.htm

Finding alternative fuels would reduce our overall crude demand, much of which is imported from unstable regions around the world, take Venezuela and the Mideast.

The catch: there are billions upon billions of dollars of assets and infrastructure available to process oil into different products.

An ideal solution would be able to use the existing infrastructure to process some new source into fuel. Ethanol is a decent substitute for gasoline and can be refined from vegetable matter. South Americans use switch grass as their feed stock, while the U.S. and Canada has tapped into the corn industry.

Let's look at corn as a feed stock:

1. Requires government subsidies to make cheap ethanol. It comes as a cost to our government, not good as we face large government debt.

2. Using corn as fuel feedstocks diverts it from its use as a food export to poor countries. This would lower the net exports portion of our GDP, increase the cost of corn-related food products (supply-demand) affecting our economy and stiffen some of the good will to these poorer countries.

3. Using corn as fuel feedstocks would make midwestern farmers better off. A plus for the midwestern regional economy.

4. Technology to turn corn waste products (leaves, stalks etc.) into ethanol could partially relieve no. 1 and 2. So would switching to another feed, like switchgrass.

Looking at ethanol as a fuel...

1. It burns slightly cleaner than gasoline. The waste products are easier to remove w/ a catalytic converter.

2. Ethanol is a shorter molecule, has fewer bonds to break,reform and therefore produces less heat energy than long chain C4's-C12's in gas. It may produce less wear and tear on the engine, but requires more volume to get the same amount of energy.

3. Ethanol mixes with water and could pose engine problems. If fuel station storage hulls have leaks, water can get in.

4. Ethanol has a higher vapor pressure than gasoline, making it difficult to transport quickly via pressurized pipelines.

Mr. Arieson · 09-16-2007, 04:15 PM

You know, as most of you are probably republicans on this site, you must think the market drives everything. I actually agree with that, because if oil dissapeared, new ideas would be market driven. The problem with that is by then it will be too late. We need big ideas now, not just name calling ("The breck girl", for example). I already explained why the 1000 mile solar panel won't work. Not because it won't be pysically possible, but because hard core leftist environmental nutjobs won't let it be built.

Tom Yum · 09-16-2007, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Arieson

You know, as most of you are probably republicans on this site, you must think the market drives everything. I actually agree with that, because if oil dissapeared, new ideas would be market driven. The problem with that is by then it will be too late. We need big ideas now, not just name calling ("The breck girl", for example). I already explained why the 1000 mile solar panel won't work. Not because it won't be pysically possible, but because hard core leftist environmental nutjobs won't let it be built.

There are environmental and technical challenges as well.

Most solar cells are made up of GaAs. Sunlight, Oxygen & Weathering of a foot-ball sized field of GaAs panels could release fine grained arsenic (uh oh) into the air, land and water supply. If I'm not mistaken, the process used to synthesize crystals from molten GaAs is expensive too.

The energy conversion efficiency of GaAs, even doped is probably 20%? meaning 80% of the collected sunlight is lost (heating + reflection)...on the bright side, sunlight is still free (until I get my patent to 'securitize' the sun into paper assets whose value changes on solar events and weather...

jk)

The good thing is that solar panels are already being used in remote areas not readily connected to electric grids and on small government projects - like school zone lights etc.

You are correct saying we need big ideas. Reminds me of the story of how synthetic rubber was created during WW2, another time when politics/war forced us to look for an alternative source.

Nuclear energy could meet the needs for electric power. It comes as a huge safety hazard, not only from an operational standard, but as a terrorist target as well.

Look at nuclear subs! Bad ass...

jubaji · 09-17-2007, 12:09 AM

How many terrorist attacks have there been in the US since 9/11?

jubaji · 09-17-2007, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Arieson

But I bet you manage to fully read the Drudge report. And take every word for gospel.

You do an awful lot of betting, guessing, supposing, and assuming, don't you, shitforbrains?

THAT is why I don't bother to read your nonsense when its the same tired old shit again and again.

jubaji · 09-17-2007, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Arieson

Yeah, and I am still waiting for your ideas on alternative energy.
I am waiting.

Keep waiting, asscheese. Do I work for you or something? Save the childishly obvious questions for your playgroup.

jubaji · 09-17-2007, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Arieson

You know, as most of you are probably republicans on this site, .

You have no idea of the political affiliation of "most" people here. YOU are as addicted to empty-headed assumptions as dick is to the weed.

Mr. Arieson · 09-17-2007, 11:35 AM

Mike, with all due respect, I think you are wrong. You say right wing talk radio hosts are not decision makers? I say they are huge decision influencers, so much so that they are affecting elections. Are you underestimating the Rush audience, and the political clout it has? Who cares about the View? Not me. I don't even listen or watch that crap. Rosie O'donell will never influence anyone. Or, even more, she pushes people the OTHER way. They have zero influence, but right wingers like Rush sure do. He has enough power and clout to even get Dick Cheney on his show. I think you are underestimating what these radio shows do for your party. They hold the same or even more sway over their followers then some of the megachurches do.

Mike, as I said, I listen to right wing radio all the time. It's all that's in my car. I get two hours of it in the morning,, 1/2 hour during lunch, and the two more hours on the way home each day. I feel I am very well versed in what they are saying and talking about, and the way they go about it. I listen to the callers and hear what their concerns are. Many are like Jubaji. They just complain or make fun of, but rarely offer any positive suggestions. Because they have none. It's just stay the course. On almost every issue.

By the way, I don't listen to Al Franken. I tried a few times, and I can't get past the stuttering. Left wing radio or the vast left wing media should not concern you guys at all, as it has no influence. For every Daryl Hannah, Sean Penn, or other tree hugging nut with money actually HELPS you guys. You do realize that, right? The working guy driving his pickup truck home to go watch football and drink budweiser (No, I am not being a class elitist here-this is the average american) will be totally turned off by Sean Penn or Barbara Striesand, or Al Franken. Rush Limbaugh, with his football and cigars and golf, is much more someone they look up to.

Man, if Rush was supporting extreme environmentalism, this country would be green very quick.

jubaji · 09-17-2007, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Arieson

Mike, with all due respect, I think you are wrong. You say right wing talk radio hosts are not decision makers? I say they are huge decision influencers, so much so that they are affecting elections. Are you underestimating the Rush audience, and the political clout it has? Who cares about the View? Not me. I don't even listen or watch that crap. Rosie O'donell will never influence anyone. Or, even more, she pushes people the OTHER way. They have zero influence, but right wingers like Rush sure do.

Your little world exists at a very comfortable distance from all reason and logic, doesn't it?

Mr. Arieson · 09-17-2007, 10:31 PM

Mike, now I think you are over estimating left wing media. First off, it is only slightly to the left. It is not hard core, pinko socialist. (That would be the equivelent of ultra right wing like Rush). I will admit it is biased to the left, but not to the degree that you republicans think it is. Nothing the NY times publishes is false. There is just a general perceptable trend to the center left. Not the extreme left. Regional rags like L.A. Weekly fit that description better, what with their gay porn socialist articles and everything. Regular news, like CNN, is slightly to the left, that's all. And it could be argued that if every single american were seriously polled, it might show that most of us are slightly to the left, even if we don;t admit it.

Mike, any American worker in a union (and that is a huge number) are by default, slightly to the left just by being in the union.

As to all the people you mentioned, take barbara striesand for example: No way would I want to go to her house and hang out. Not with any of those hollywood types. They are the most vocal members of the extreme left. The most vocal members of the extreme right seem like a better bet for hanging out with. Rush could take you camping, fishing, hunting, and then play some golf and eat real barbeque, not tofu. Kind of the big brother you always wanted. And that's my whole point I am trying to make.

Mike, I am willing to bet it is mostly your sense of patriotism that draws you to the right. Because if you are making less then 100 grand a year, the republican policies really are not helping you. They are geared toward the benefit of people who have money and power. The honest working guy, or ex soldier, gets the shaft from the GOP, who paints every thing they do as moral and patriotic. Mike, I already know your stance on things, so I admit the democrats are no prize either. For me, it has always been the lesser of two evils.

Well, it's just my opinion. I doubt I will ever change your mind, but I appreciate your opinions. At least you have ideas. I have read all your posts, and you always offer a suggestion, without name calling, even during the most spirited debates.

Unlike Jubaji. With Jubaji, no one can win. He thinks he is the smartest person in the world, and that his version of the truth is plain for all to see. It's not. Not to me. Might be helpful if I saw some of his earliest posts to this forum, during his Newbie years. Maybe then I would get a sense of whether of not he even has any experience or real knowledge, or if he always was the bloated internet grouch, windbag, troll and keyboard warrior that he now is.

In the end, he can name call from a distance all he wants, but this part is really important:

With 7000 plus posts, that much time on his hands, I already know my life is better, richer, and more fullfilling then his ever will be. There is no way he is a mature, intelligent leader of society. His petty name calling and whining with Uke and Dick hardman was so pathetic that even Garland had to step in and call him on it. No, JUabji, you are probably what you seem to be. handicapped, fat, retired US Postman, or on disability. No one else has time for 7000 posts, unless they are stealing company time. I believe you are almost exactly like Cliff Clavin from "Cheers".Enjoy your life Jubaji, I would not trade places with you for anything.

DickHardman · 09-17-2007, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Arieson

Rush could take you camping, fishing, hunting, and then play some golf and eat real barbeque, not tofu.

he could also toss you a few of the 500+ pills of oxycontin he scored from doctor shopping with all the cash he gets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Arieson

With 7000 plus posts, that much time on his hands, I already know my life is better, richer, and more fullfilling then his ever will be. There is no way he is a mature, intelligent leader of society. His petty name calling and whining with Uke and Dick hardman was so pathetic that even Garland had to step in and call him on it. No, JUabji, you are probably what you seem to be. handicapped, fat, retired US Postman, or on disability. No one else has time for 7000 posts, unless they are stealing company time. I believe you are almost exactly like Cliff Clavin from "Cheers".Enjoy your life Jubaji, I would not trade places with you for anything.

hahaha....yeah jubaji is pretty weaksauce. 7000 posts of nothing but one liners. and no he was never a postman. he has worked as a sexually deviant high school religion teacher for the past 40 years until he got forced into early retirement, lost his wife, became an alcoholic, and then proceeded to injure his neck due to certain circumstances that we all heard about already

jubaji · 09-18-2007, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Arieson

Mike, now I think you are over estimating left wing media. First off, it is only slightly to the left. It is not hard core, pinko socialist. (That would be the equivelent of ultra right wing like Rush).

Nothing the NY times publishes is false. There is just a general perceptable trend to the center left. Not the extreme left.

Regular news, like CNN, is slightly to the left, that's all. And it could be argued that if every single american were seriously polled, it might show that most of us are slightly to the left, even if we don;t admit it.

Rush could take you camping, fishing, hunting, and then play some golf and eat real barbeque, not tofu. Kind of the big brother you always wanted. And that's my whole point I am trying to make.

Mike, I am willing to bet it is mostly your sense of patriotism that draws you to the right. Because if you are making less then 100 grand a year, the republican policies really are not helping you. They are geared toward the benefit of people who have money and power. The honest working guy, or ex soldier, gets the shaft from the GOP, who paints every thing they do as moral and patriotic.

Is the part of the brain that is supposed to tell you what is subjective view and what is not, missing from your rotting mellon? Is a side effect of that condition an obsession with speculation?

I like the part about nothing the NYTimes publishes being false. Seems they've had a few spots of trouble with that very thing in recent years. I guess you were too busy guessing to pay attention.

Finally, have you considered that you are actually in love with Rush Limbah? You seem to spend an awful lot of time thinking about how much you'd like to hang out with him. As for your apparent hatred of tofu, I suppose you had some kind of tofu trauma as a child or something...

jubaji · 09-18-2007, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Arieson

He thinks he is the smartest person in the world, and that his version of the truth is plain for all to see.

There is no way he is a mature, intelligent leader of society. you are probably what you seem to be. handicapped, fat, retired US Postman, or on disability. I believe you are almost exactly like Cliff Clavin from "Cheers".

For someone who loves to play the guessing game so much, you really suck at it.

Tom Yum · 09-18-2007, 12:24 AM

Man, I love watching cheers! And Cliff Clavin, but he isn't complete without Norm!!

C'mon jubs. Be nice.

09-16-2007, 04:07 PM	#31 (permalink)
Tom Yum Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Here and there. Posts: 11,307 Groans: 1 Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts	Since this discussion started involves oil, democracy and war - I'd like to chip in my 2 baht here, since that's the going rate of my brain power at the moment...lol Fuels make up more than 60% of crude oil demand in the United States. http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/p...ons_sector.htm Finding alternative fuels would reduce our overall crude demand, much of which is imported from unstable regions around the world, take Venezuela and the Mideast. The catch: there are billions upon billions of dollars of assets and infrastructure available to process oil into different products. An ideal solution would be able to use the existing infrastructure to process some new source into fuel. Ethanol is a decent substitute for gasoline and can be refined from vegetable matter. South Americans use switch grass as their feed stock, while the U.S. and Canada has tapped into the corn industry. Let's look at corn as a feed stock: 1. Requires government subsidies to make cheap ethanol. It comes as a cost to our government, not good as we face large government debt. 2. Using corn as fuel feedstocks diverts it from its use as a food export to poor countries. This would lower the net exports portion of our GDP, increase the cost of corn-related food products (supply-demand) affecting our economy and stiffen some of the good will to these poorer countries. 3. Using corn as fuel feedstocks would make midwestern farmers better off. A plus for the midwestern regional economy. 4. Technology to turn corn waste products (leaves, stalks etc.) into ethanol could partially relieve no. 1 and 2. So would switching to another feed, like switchgrass. Looking at ethanol as a fuel... 1. It burns slightly cleaner than gasoline. The waste products are easier to remove w/ a catalytic converter. 2. Ethanol is a shorter molecule, has fewer bonds to break,reform and therefore produces less heat energy than long chain C4's-C12's in gas. It may produce less wear and tear on the engine, but requires more volume to get the same amount of energy. 3. Ethanol mixes with water and could pose engine problems. If fuel station storage hulls have leaks, water can get in. 4. Ethanol has a higher vapor pressure than gasoline, making it difficult to transport quickly via pressurized pipelines. __________________ Love it, leave it or fix it. Last edited by Tom Yum; 09-16-2007 at 07:55 PM.

09-17-2007, 12:09 AM	#34 (permalink)
jubaji Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: koko Posts: 8,794 Groans: 0 Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post	How many terrorist attacks have there been in the US since 9/11? __________________ Optional signature you may use to appear at bottom of your posts.

09-18-2007, 12:24 AM	#44 (permalink)
Tom Yum Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Here and there. Posts: 11,307 Groans: 1 Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts	Man, I love watching cheers! And Cliff Clavin, but he isn't complete without Norm!! C'mon jubs. Be nice. __________________ Love it, leave it or fix it. Last edited by Tom Yum; 09-18-2007 at 10:55 PM.

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09-16-2007, 04:15 PM	#32 (permalink)
Mr. Arieson Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,028 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	You know, as most of you are probably republicans on this site, you must think the market drives everything. I actually agree with that, because if oil dissapeared, new ideas would be market driven. The problem with that is by then it will be too late. We need big ideas now, not just name calling ("The breck girl", for example). I already explained why the 1000 mile solar panel won't work. Not because it won't be pysically possible, but because hard core leftist environmental nutjobs won't let it be built.

09-17-2007, 11:35 AM	#38 (permalink)
Mr. Arieson Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,028 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Mike, with all due respect, I think you are wrong. You say right wing talk radio hosts are not decision makers? I say they are huge decision influencers, so much so that they are affecting elections. Are you underestimating the Rush audience, and the political clout it has? Who cares about the View? Not me. I don't even listen or watch that crap. Rosie O'donell will never influence anyone. Or, even more, she pushes people the OTHER way. They have zero influence, but right wingers like Rush sure do. He has enough power and clout to even get Dick Cheney on his show. I think you are underestimating what these radio shows do for your party. They hold the same or even more sway over their followers then some of the megachurches do. Mike, as I said, I listen to right wing radio all the time. It's all that's in my car. I get two hours of it in the morning,, 1/2 hour during lunch, and the two more hours on the way home each day. I feel I am very well versed in what they are saying and talking about, and the way they go about it. I listen to the callers and hear what their concerns are. Many are like Jubaji. They just complain or make fun of, but rarely offer any positive suggestions. Because they have none. It's just stay the course. On almost every issue. By the way, I don't listen to Al Franken. I tried a few times, and I can't get past the stuttering. Left wing radio or the vast left wing media should not concern you guys at all, as it has no influence. For every Daryl Hannah, Sean Penn, or other tree hugging nut with money actually HELPS you guys. You do realize that, right? The working guy driving his pickup truck home to go watch football and drink budweiser (No, I am not being a class elitist here-this is the average american) will be totally turned off by Sean Penn or Barbara Striesand, or Al Franken. Rush Limbaugh, with his football and cigars and golf, is much more someone they look up to. Man, if Rush was supporting extreme environmentalism, this country would be green very quick.

09-17-2007, 10:31 PM	#40 (permalink)
Mr. Arieson Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,028 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Mike, now I think you are over estimating left wing media. First off, it is only slightly to the left. It is not hard core, pinko socialist. (That would be the equivelent of ultra right wing like Rush). I will admit it is biased to the left, but not to the degree that you republicans think it is. Nothing the NY times publishes is false. There is just a general perceptable trend to the center left. Not the extreme left. Regional rags like L.A. Weekly fit that description better, what with their gay porn socialist articles and everything. Regular news, like CNN, is slightly to the left, that's all. And it could be argued that if every single american were seriously polled, it might show that most of us are slightly to the left, even if we don;t admit it. Mike, any American worker in a union (and that is a huge number) are by default, slightly to the left just by being in the union. As to all the people you mentioned, take barbara striesand for example: No way would I want to go to her house and hang out. Not with any of those hollywood types. They are the most vocal members of the extreme left. The most vocal members of the extreme right seem like a better bet for hanging out with. Rush could take you camping, fishing, hunting, and then play some golf and eat real barbeque, not tofu. Kind of the big brother you always wanted. And that's my whole point I am trying to make. Mike, I am willing to bet it is mostly your sense of patriotism that draws you to the right. Because if you are making less then 100 grand a year, the republican policies really are not helping you. They are geared toward the benefit of people who have money and power. The honest working guy, or ex soldier, gets the shaft from the GOP, who paints every thing they do as moral and patriotic. Mike, I already know your stance on things, so I admit the democrats are no prize either. For me, it has always been the lesser of two evils. Well, it's just my opinion. I doubt I will ever change your mind, but I appreciate your opinions. At least you have ideas. I have read all your posts, and you always offer a suggestion, without name calling, even during the most spirited debates. Unlike Jubaji. With Jubaji, no one can win. He thinks he is the smartest person in the world, and that his version of the truth is plain for all to see. It's not. Not to me. Might be helpful if I saw some of his earliest posts to this forum, during his Newbie years. Maybe then I would get a sense of whether of not he even has any experience or real knowledge, or if he always was the bloated internet grouch, windbag, troll and keyboard warrior that he now is. In the end, he can name call from a distance all he wants, but this part is really important: With 7000 plus posts, that much time on his hands, I already know my life is better, richer, and more fullfilling then his ever will be. There is no way he is a mature, intelligent leader of society. His petty name calling and whining with Uke and Dick hardman was so pathetic that even Garland had to step in and call him on it. No, JUabji, you are probably what you seem to be. handicapped, fat, retired US Postman, or on disability. No one else has time for 7000 posts, unless they are stealing company time. I believe you are almost exactly like Cliff Clavin from "Cheers".Enjoy your life Jubaji, I would not trade places with you for anything.

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