jubaji

Ah, the office of President of the United States as an affirmative action position? Brilliant fucking idea, D.I.

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jubaji

Idiots like you are the Senator's worst enemies...

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Ghost

Hi Mike, you post a lot and at this time i really dont have time to keep up with it but id like to, however ill throw something in anyway.
On the issue of Iraq again, Obama made the right call McCain didnt.

Thats fact and to me is 1 element of why he may be a better leader. Military experience isnt always the best for a leader of a country.

On withdrawl i personally prefer Obamas withdrawl plan. He can see the need to stay for a bit but its a withdrawl plan. I can see McCains point, i think Hillary is a nutcase to pull out in 60 days. So im not entirely against McCains view though i prefer Obamas and i wont vote for Hillary even if her other policies were correct due to her lack of understanding over Iraq.

I think the war is a large contributing factor to the economic problems faced by America now.

And that brings me on to the economy.
The other thing that scares me about McCain is that he knows nothing about the economy.
Even he admits it himself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XazpaYwFKd8

Obama has more understanding and can talk about economic policy where as McCain simply gets lost and passes it off. Is McCain what America needs now as it enters a downturn period in the economy?

Those are 2 of the 3 important factors for me, the other being race. but weve covered that now i guess.

I think America is a less safe place as a consequence of Bush's actions. I think Obama has the power to change this due to his potential status in the middle east. For now,for the next 4 years it would be for the best as he can do things McCain cant simply because of his name. THats a fact and has been reported as such on CNN in a documentary examining this case in particular.

On the point of working cross-party
Obama plans to pick Republicans for cabinet
Senior advisers confirmed that Hagel, a highly decorated Vietnam war veteran and one of McCain’s closest friends in the Senate, was considered an ideal candidate for defence secretary. Some regard the outspoken Republican as a possible vice-presidential nominee although that might be regarded as a “stretch”.
Asked about his choice of cabinet last week, Obama told The Sunday Times: “Chuck Hagel is a great friend of mine and I respect him very much,” although he was wary of appearing as though he was already choosing the White House curtains. But after winning 11 primary contests in a row after Super Tuesday, he is ready to elbow Clinton off the stage.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle3466823.ece

In terms of character.
Do you really want me to dig out all of McCains childish outbursts at reporters?

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Ghost

The one that mattered. The one where he didnt vote in favor of going to war.

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There are no second chances.

“Anyone can give up, it's the easiest thing in the world to do. But to hold it together when everyone else would understand if you fell apart, that's true strength.”

Ghost

Mike its ok to not agree, thats why everyone gets a vote. Doesnt make anyone a bad person, people just have different opinions. I think on this you wouldnt vote for Obama but may do one day perhaps and i wouldnt vote for McCain right now but i wouldnt be very disappointed if he got in either.
I like McCain i just prefer and can see, imo, better reasons to choose Obama.
Hillary i really have no time for. I think thats one thing we agree on lol.

__________________
There are no second chances.

“Anyone can give up, it's the easiest thing in the world to do. But to hold it together when everyone else would understand if you fell apart, that's true strength.”

Ghost

Ok Mike, ill put something together but i want to be clear on something. You mention that you will list McCAins record and i should list Obamas.

Ive noticed this in the thread that you are very interested in the records of both candidates. While i know this is relevant i think we are both judging on rather different criteria. Im interested in what they actually say, and can say.
For instance i dont doubt that McCain has a record of doing something or other related to economics. However he cant string a sentence together on it and admits he knows nothing about it. Its this kind of thing that bothers me. He may not know what he appears to know on paper.

People having a record on something is all well and good but if at the moment they are required to talk about it all you get is an "um yeah well i dont know about that" or they make mistakes, like McCain just has about AlQueda being in Iran.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkfM7z0-Vdg
Then its worth nothing. People get on all kinds of boards and committees and so on for show purposes yet know nothing.

However, i will put something together but your counters should include video proof that McCain knows and understands what is on his record and it doesnt just exist in ink.
I mean if something is hard to find video of then fine but you get what i mean, i wont be unreasonable and say where is the video if there simply isnt one, that wouldnt be fair.

__________________
There are no second chances.

“Anyone can give up, it's the easiest thing in the world to do. But to hold it together when everyone else would understand if you fell apart, that's true strength.”

jubaji

Which one of his several positions? Surely not the most recent one.

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jubaji

YOU don't, and don't forget it.

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jubaji

Superficial idiot

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Ghost

I answered this before, the one that mattered, that would be the one where he didnt vote for the war, i will explain more about the relevance of this later.

Also, regarding what they say as opposed to their records, it matters.
For instance if McCain can make some economic changes now but know or understand them then that means others are doing it for him and he is stamping his name on it.

Thats not good enough at presidential level but is acceptable where he is now. A president has to understand what he is signing for.

__________________
There are no second chances.

“Anyone can give up, it's the easiest thing in the world to do. But to hold it together when everyone else would understand if you fell apart, that's true strength.”

jubaji

Oh, not the one later where he said his position was just about the same as President Bush's? Not the one where he said it would be irresponsible to pull out all at once and without finishing the job (although later he thought that would be a great idea)? Not the one where he opposed the current strategy that seems to be working well and giving the best chance to resolve the matter successfully?

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Ghost

Yes the one where we wouldnt be in this mess when he made the correct choice before.

Besides, dont underestimate the effect his NO vote will have on his standing in the middle east.

__________________
There are no second chances.

“Anyone can give up, it's the easiest thing in the world to do. But to hold it together when everyone else would understand if you fell apart, that's true strength.”

jubaji

And who do you think has more experience deliberating and making important concrete decisions relating to the nation's economy?

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Ghost

well i would have said mccain but i dont think he does, i cant see any real evidence of it. as he doesnt seem to know the first thing about it.
I cant help think hes just handed stuff to sign.
By his own admission, he knows nothing about the economy. He doesnt even understand interest rates.

Have a watch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqGWTh_NZ-0

You have to think, hes just signing stuff on the advise of others and his name gets stamped on the deal making him look good.

This is not acceptable at presidential level and especially not now when the states faces an economic crisis. But its not on anyway, a president has to at least be well rounded.

This is primary evidence that he doesnt understand economics, therefore any "record" he has on economics is just him signing things and agree with what good advisors say. Thats not a "record" in anyones book.

__________________
There are no second chances.

“Anyone can give up, it's the easiest thing in the world to do. But to hold it together when everyone else would understand if you fell apart, that's true strength.”

Ghost

Ok im sitting here typing bits here and there. Anyway ill post up what i have done so far. I didnt go digging up records, i stuck to what i can see being said and what i can see being done based on facts. So ill post up what i did so far, its not everything i have to say its just a bit of it but its a start.
Some of it repeats what i said before. Ive tried to be realistic as well and acknowledge that some things were pretty close calls.

Well lets start with the first option and if i have some time tomorrow then maybe we will do the latter option, might be fun.
Firstly dont get me mixed up with other posters, as i have said before i dont dislike mccain. in some areas i find it hard to choose between mccain and obama as you will see in a minute but overall i prefer Obama.

So you understand my thinking a bit better for this discussion the reasons i prefer Obama in no particular order are because.

1) he has a better understanding of the economy.
2) he made the right choice on iraq when it counted
3) he wants to get out of iraq
4) he will have more influence where it counts on the world scene for the next 4 years - middle east, due to his NO vote, his ethnic background and his middle name.

The most important criteria for me for THIS particular election ( and i specify this one because as world events and national events change different leaders are more suitable, i hope thats common sense) are:
1) Economy
2) International relations and foreign policy
3) Iraq strategy


If you wonder why i dont include anything on health care and education it is because in the west we enjoy massively superior levels of both already and i think no matter what any of them decide there will still be a good service available to everyone regardless of who wins. The factors above affect more people and have a worldwide impact and are therefore more important, imo, given that education and healthcare will remain of a high standard anyway.

1.Economy
This is simply won on the basis that Obama understands more than McCain does about the economy, both have excellent advisors, but you have to be able to have an understandning of economics at presidential level. McCain doesnt understand the economy in the slightest, that is clear and therefore he actually doesnt make any decisions on it, he just goes along with the advice. To say he makes economic decisions is false. I cant accept this from a national leader.

I think the US needs a leader that can understand the economy and make some decisions on it.
I think you need a leader that understands his own economic policies. Now i know that no leader can do everything fully, it doesnt happen, they have advisors. But they should understandtheir own policies and be able to talk about the economy in some detail at least.
Some of Obama's economic policy is here
http://my.barackobama.com/page/commu...hamfelsen/Cmzm

2. International relations and foreign policy

Dealing with the rest of the world.
In particular the middle east. The fact that Obama voted against the war gives him a huge boost in the middle east.
Regardless on if he changed his mind later and then back again its the perception that is vital and the fact he cast the correct vote means everything there. This is not a point scoring competition, its far more important than that. Even if Obama changed his mind later, the very perception that he opposed the war means the middle east is wishing he will be the next president. This means they will talk to him.

This also shows the importance of getting it right at the right time. For all McCains experience he made the wrong call. I dont care how you mix it, he got it wrong, Obama got it right.
I know and understand that it was a close call in Obama getting it right and he has changed his mind. Nevertheless he got it right and McCain got it wrong. Its like someone making a mistake in the last minute of a game or getting it right, the outcome effects who wins the game and so is everything. Again, saying he changed his mind later means nothing, i accept he did, he got it right when it mattered and the middle east thinks so too, thats all that matters in the real world.
You wont get muslim leaders and public sitting down and saying "ah yes but look here he changed his mind". They see the NO vote, thats what counts.

He also went to a muslim school and grew up in Indonesia, a muslim country, and his middle name is Hussein. A name that has great standing among muslims, you must not underestimate this, it gives power, literally. Muslim culture works differently and the name Hussein in itself has meaning.

This combined gives him bargaining power McCain cant ever have, thats not McCains fault, its a chance of birth but nevertheless it is true.
McCain voted for the war, is white,ex military and republican and doesnt see a need to leave Iraq. You know what i mean here, its the perception that counts and Obama will be seen in a better light and that is the guy i would send in to get things done in the middle east.
Obama explains this well here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpjWAzqAwcw
Obama has more potential, if he lives up to it or not would remain to be seen but he can open doors McCain cant.

Foreign policy.
I like both foreign policies and cant really choose anything between obama and mccain. For instance i like this by McCain very much.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5QKyUvZv5A
Going to the point above though i think Obama has the influence in the most important area. To me that nudges it in Obamas favor.


3. Iraq
We need a guy that understands the situation, i think both do, though stuff like this scares me
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkfM7z0-Vdg

We need, imo, an exit strategy. Obama has this McCain does not. However i understand McCains point of view and im not entirely against his opinion.
We also need a guy that makes the right choice at the right time. Obama did this, regardless of if he changed his mind. You know i bet anyone making such an important decision has doubts and isnt sure.
What matters though is the ability to cast the correct vote at the correct time, Obama did this.
Obama edges the lead in this argument for me though given that we are there now and the situation stands im not actually against McCains policy, i just prefer Obamas idea.

Do you think middle eastern leader want to talk to a guy that doesnt have an exit strategy for Iraq, i dont.

What puts me off McCain.
On paper McCain has a good profile, no doubt about that. Mike, you mention his record alot. He has more experience than Obama, sure, i dont disagree.
McCain is the guy that is great on paper so you invite him for an interview. Then you get the equivalent of the youtube links i have listed above.
And you sit there thinking, well that wasnt quite what i expected given the guys experiences.

On a side note did anyone ever work out if McCain is actually allowed to become president as he wasnt born in america?

__________________
There are no second chances.

“Anyone can give up, it's the easiest thing in the world to do. But to hold it together when everyone else would understand if you fell apart, that's true strength.”