How far would you go to teach a lesson

eXcessiveForce · 04-24-2008, 02:20 AM

Hey all,

Curiosity leads me to ask the question, How far would you go to teach the new guy a lesson in respect.

Say you have a new guy join your training group, he's been around a few months and has been a bit to cocky for his own good from the start. Since his skill level is low he can't back up his perception of himself, and he does a poor job of hiding his paradigm.

Nothing blatant, just he assumes he understands things that he doesn't, Stops listening to instruction mid way through and then does not modify his approach because he wasn't really listening. Spends more time working on things he learned in his old training (which get him pummeled regularly) than actually learning what he's being taught or simply tries in vain to throw garbage hoping he will find away to beat people rather than learning good habits. general stuff like that.

Would you overload him constantly?
Would you out class him and frustrate him?
Would you beat him till he adapts or dies?
Would you knock him out?

Would you escalate the training by adding in other ranges where he thinks he will be better able to fight in (but is totally outclassed in) just to show him he needs to work on what he's being taught rather than his over confident idea of his abilities to somehow magically be able to fight better when he can't fight in the range he is working.

Anyway, I"m just curious how others would deal with a situation like this. Also realize that our goal is to help him improve. However in this context we are not a commercial endeavor anymore but more of a training group who will allow some people to pay to join (at least until they achieve a level to be useful for upper level training purposes) so the concept of losing a student from a business stand point is moot, but the idea of losing a potential training partner is poignant.

I am interested to hear your ideas

Ghost · 04-24-2008, 03:01 AM

I wouldnt bother doing anything. Hes payed to train, he wont get my full attention but he has paid to train so he will get his moneys worth. Nothing more, nothing less.

Later he might get his ideas together and if he does he will get more attention.

i wouldnt worry too much about one person and any notion of teaching them a lesson

Mike Brewer · 04-24-2008, 09:07 AM

I think any instructor who teaches for any length of time has run into this same guy.

My approach as a classmate is different from my approach as an instructor. As a classmate, I train at the level he thinks he's at. I've always had a rule that I train at the level and intensity of the junior partner. If I'm on the floor with a spaz who doesn't listen - one whose cockiness and lack of attention could get me hurt - I'm going to spar with him the way I would if he were as good as he thinks. He'll probably lose often, and he'll be frustrated by it. That goes one of two ways. He either gets the hint that maybe he's not the baddest guy on the floor, or he gets mad and ramps things up and gets himself knocked out. Again, I'm playing at his level of intensity. If he comes after me with the intent to do harm, I'll tune him up. That's the kind of peer pressure that keeps a lot of places like boxing gyms in line, and the very mechanism that keeps egos in check. When I was living with and training with Vunak, there were a few of us he'd rely on to do this kind of thing from time to time. He had several instructor-level people who thought very highly of themselves, and he found that it was hard to teach them new things while they were floating on an ego cloud. Most people came to train with him in groups, ordinarily made up of the instructor and a couple or three of his students. In some cases, the instructor would beat his students pillar to post as if showing off was the point of the whole trip. Paul would very often in these situations give me a signal and I'd do whatever I could to feed them some humble pie. Luckily, Paul never asked me to do that against someone better than me.

As an instructor, that taught me a valuable lesson. It's good to have a senior student or two that you can put on the guy to show him where he really stands. All too often, the mindset you're talking about leads to bullies. Worse for them, maybe, is that it leads to an inability to learn or grow. The way I've worked it in the past is, I'll choose a lesson plan that works to this guy's weakest areas. Preferably, it'll be an area where a lot of his classmates are very strong. As you go through the lesson, everybody gets compliments but this guy. Make a big deal out of how great everyone is progressing, and do it individually, leaving your problem child out of that praise. Don't be as unsubtle as to say something like "Everybody but shitface over here did great!" Just make the rounds during class and stop people now and then to commend them on their progress. End the day with some sparring. Match the guy up with your senior people ONLY. His ego is probably already in overdrive, and if you put him with one of those folks you already complimented, he may try to beat on them to make up for it and make himself feel superior. So put him in against someone who can walk him like a dog and let them play to his perceived ability and intensity. He'll get his ass kicked, and he'll probably feel bad about it. That's good.

As the instructor, your job is now to pull him aside and instruct. Have a private chat with him and tell him you saw how badly he felt during the class. Having the experience you have, you also see what might have caused him to have such a rough night. Tell him that it's your job as an instructor to help him grow, but that what he needs isn't technical - it's mental. Point out to him point blank that you think his ego is getting in the way. Tell him the reason he got worked over is because he often comes across like a know-it-all. Tell him like a man, straight to his face and as honest and blunt as can be, and then tell him that if he wants to really progress in these arts, he's got to learn to let the insecurities go. He's got to learn that it's okay not to know. After all, if he knew it all already, he wouldn't need you. Plant the seed that if he can ditch his need to come across as better than he really is, he'll actually get better. Then let him go home and stew on it. He'll come around.

Or he won't. But it's better than having some dickhead on the floor and it's more in line with what an instructor's job really is. You're not just there to teach techniques.

eXcessiveForce · 04-24-2008, 09:32 AM

Yeah we made a mistake with him. When he first came in he was too cocky, (he asked me the first day if I thought I could beat him in sparring) realize that we are now a training group. It was a private group of instructors only we started to find we needed new blood So we decided to let people show up. Then we figured we might as well charge them so they don't waste our time. So while we teach, that isn't the purpose of the group the purpose really is for the instructors to get a workout amongst ourself and against people who might do strange things.

So while two of us do share the role of teaching it is a very informal structure.

Our mistake with this guy is he didn't have the right gear in the beginning so I let him wear a FIST tactical helmet until his gear came in. So he was able to walk through some awful shots without realizing how much damage he would be taking. That stopped once he put on the normal headgear we use. But we only sparred with him just above his level. All of us have been working on our weaknesses because unlike the rest he hasn't learned to be any kind of threat yet. The others within a few weeks would close up their game, and they wouldn't give us the junk they came in with anymore. This guy is stuck about half way. His game isn't tight, but at least he now has a bit of a defense.

He made a comment the other day to the other person who does the training (it was a playful bit of smack talk) It got him beat severely. They were working boxing and trapping range only. The person doing the training is most comfortable in that range.

So I'm trying to decide what to do to him tonight when I get to work with him. I don't want his attitude to annoy everyone else, but I'd like to see the guy "get it" He's got the chance to be a monster if he'd just stop searching and listen.

When we started him on jabs and crosses for instance, he kept trying to throw spin backfists, and other crap. So even the newest guys were killing him just using jabs and crosses. Even months later, he still will jump to low probability techniques rather than increase his skills in the high probability ones.

Perhaps it is time to let him see what the level he thinks he's at is like.

Liberty · 04-24-2008, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

I think any instructor who teaches for any length of time has run into this same guy.

My approach as a classmate is different from my approach as an instructor. As a classmate, I train at the level he thinks he's at. I've always had a rule that I train at the level and intensity of the junior partner. If I'm on the floor with a spaz who doesn't listen - one whose cockiness and lack of attention could get me hurt - I'm going to spar with him the way I would if he were as good as he thinks. He'll probably lose often, and he'll be frustrated by it. That goes one of two ways. He either gets the hint that maybe he's not the baddest guy on the floor, or he gets mad and ramps things up and gets himself knocked out. Again, I'm playing at his level of intensity. If he comes after me with the intent to do harm, I'll tune him up. That's the kind of peer pressure that keeps a lot of places like boxing gyms in line, and the very mechanism that keeps egos in check. When I was living with and training with Vunak, there were a few of us he'd rely on to do this kind of thing from time to time. He had several instructor-level people who thought very highly of themselves, and he found that it was hard to teach them new things while they were floating on an ego cloud. Most people came to train with him in groups, ordinarily made up of the instructor and a couple or three of his students. In some cases, the instructor would beat his students pillar to post as if showing off was the point of the whole trip. Paul would very often in these situations give me a signal and I'd do whatever I could to feed them some humble pie. Luckily, Paul never asked me to do that against someone better than me.

As an instructor, that taught me a valuable lesson. It's good to have a senior student or two that you can put on the guy to show him where he really stands. All too often, the mindset you're talking about leads to bullies. Worse for them, maybe, is that it leads to an inability to learn or grow. The way I've worked it in the past is, I'll choose a lesson plan that works to this guy's weakest areas. Preferably, it'll be an area where a lot of his classmates are very strong. As you go through the lesson, everybody gets compliments but this guy. Make a big deal out of how great everyone is progressing, and do it individually, leaving your problem child out of that praise. Don't be as unsubtle as to say something like "Everybody but shitface over here did great!" Just make the rounds during class and stop people now and then to commend them on their progress. End the day with some sparring. Match the guy up with your senior people ONLY. His ego is probably already in overdrive, and if you put him with one of those folks you already complimented, he may try to beat on them to make up for it and make himself feel superior. So put him in against someone who can walk him like a dog and let them play to his perceived ability and intensity. He'll get his ass kicked, and he'll probably feel bad about it. That's good.

As the instructor, your job is now to pull him aside and instruct. Have a private chat with him and tell him you saw how badly he felt during the class. Having the experience you have, you also see what might have caused him to have such a rough night. Tell him that it's your job as an instructor to help him grow, but that what he needs isn't technical - it's mental. Point out to him point blank that you think his ego is getting in the way. Tell him the reason he got worked over is because he often comes across like a know-it-all. Tell him like a man, straight to his face and as honest and blunt as can be, and then tell him that if he wants to really progress in these arts, he's got to learn to let the insecurities go. He's got to learn that it's okay not to know. After all, if he knew it all already, he wouldn't need you. Plant the seed that if he can ditch his need to come across as better than he really is, he'll actually get better. Then let him go home and stew on it. He'll come around.

Or he won't. But it's better than having some dickhead on the floor and it's moe in line with what an instructor's job really is. You're not just there to teach techniques.

Nice - before you attempt to put in a new building, first weaken or tear down the existing structure. I like how you set that up. Going right for your intended end result often does not work - first must come the humble pie, then the hand up.

Not that that, as you pinted out, guarantees the desired result. But at least what had to be done was taken care of.

It's tragic, really. How these types sometmes never come around - to the misfortune of not only themselves, but of others, as well. The poem, "The Valley of The Six Hundred" (if I have that title right) actually pays was exactly about that type of fool/tragedy.

Tant01 · 04-24-2008, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eXcessiveForce

......

...When we started him on jabs and crosses for instance, he kept trying to throw spin backfists, and other crap. So even the newest guys were killing him just using jabs and crosses. Even months later, he still will jump to low probability techniques rather than increase his skills in the high probability ones.

Perhaps it is time to let him see what the level he thinks he's at is like.

Do you do any Judo EF? I've found that controlled impacts with terrain go a long way towards developing humility and inspiring one to stick to the curriculum.

You know you need to knock him down... Judo is just one way to do it. (Mutual welfare and benefit)

eXcessiveForce · 04-24-2008, 10:34 AM

My knowledge of actual judo is not what it should be.

At this point we are only training them in stand up.

the progression we are working on for the new guys is.

Boxing/trapping
Kicking
Clinch
Weapons
thows/takedowns/Ground
Ground + weapons

We are just getting people up to where they can begin kicking. What we have found is if you introduce kicking too soon they don't get the boxing down well enough. And when you introduce kicking they have to reassemble their tools to make them work.

Ghost · 04-24-2008, 11:29 AM

i dont see the point in bothering with people like that. why bother?

eXcessiveForce · 04-24-2008, 11:58 AM

he was 6'3, had previous training, and we needed new people to beat on, to test things on I mean.

I don't want to give the impression that this guy is a bad guy, he's not, he just isn't very mature and hasn't learned yet. We are hoping he will come around because we are now a small group and as I said we were starting to get a bit stagnant in our growth. New people that have a 6+ in reach advantage and 5 inch height advantage are good to have around to see what works and what doesn't.

If we can train him up and still school him with all his natural attributes it is further validation that 1. the stuff we are doing works, 2. we can teach it to others effectively.

Tant01 · 04-24-2008, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost

i dont see the point in bothering with people like that. why bother?

Yeah, my first thought was just make him sit out a few lessons but...More fun to slam him on the deck!

Eh... he's paying $$$... keep him entertained. (Or not) I'm sure EF has weighed the benefit / cost factor already.

Break him down THEN build him up.

Convenient "accidents" have been known to happen. It might suck to pop him with an elbow or just slap him up side the head with your open paw...a head butt? Those happen on accident all the time!

OOPS!

I still think it's more humorous to land him on his ass...

Ghost · 04-24-2008, 12:06 PM

lol i really dont see the point, if he doesnt want to learn then dont teach. No point proving something to someone that has no interest. Its not like its important.
If they pay they train unless they are disruptive. If they put effort in, id put effort in.
Personally i have no interest in teaching people a lesson they arent interested in learning.

eXcessiveForce · 04-24-2008, 12:33 PM

In this case he wants to learn, the problem isn't that, it's that he thinks he knows stuff, but it doesn't work.

Sometimes someone has to really know they don't know anything before you can teach them. He still hasn't let go and grasped the fact that he doesn't know anything. Or what he thinks he knows is wrong.

It's been a slow process, 2 steps forward one step back.

He does pay, but financial considerations do not matter. It's coming down to where if he does not learn faster he will not be useful to us. He would still be good fodder for new people coming in who do want to listen.

We want to train him, but we don't want to carry him. He probably leaves with headaches after most training sessions already, But I'm thinking we may have to decisively show him that he is not nearly as skilled as he think he is.

It's hard for some people to admit they don't know anything after they have put in years of training.

eXcessiveForce · 04-24-2008, 12:34 PM

This is all about developing him efficiently, before he ends up with brain damage. lol

Tant01 · 04-24-2008, 12:45 PM

A little deviation from the plan might be in order. You don't want him bloodied up so I'm back to throws, grappling. Show him the error of his way (gently) I'm sure you've got some painful compliance holds you could demonstrate?

eXcessiveForce · 04-24-2008, 12:56 PM

I think we can handle him even in stand up. If I let him throw kicks which I know he thinks is going to equalize things he's going to get severely thrashed, He will never land anything at all and will be sufficiently softened up by the end of the night without any long lasting physical effects.

I just have been trying no to break him. So often if they take a beating too soon they end up timid and fearful, so we waste a lot of time trying to build their confidence back.

Some people learn the easy way, some people the hard way. We have tried telling him that he's going the hard way, perhaps it is time to show him that he is going down the hard way.

04-24-2008, 02:20 AM	#1 (permalink)
eXcessiveForce Excessive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Missouri Posts: 2,690	How far would you go to teach a lesson Hey all, Curiosity leads me to ask the question, How far would you go to teach the new guy a lesson in respect. Say you have a new guy join your training group, he's been around a few months and has been a bit to cocky for his own good from the start. Since his skill level is low he can't back up his perception of himself, and he does a poor job of hiding his paradigm. Nothing blatant, just he assumes he understands things that he doesn't, Stops listening to instruction mid way through and then does not modify his approach because he wasn't really listening. Spends more time working on things he learned in his old training (which get him pummeled regularly) than actually learning what he's being taught or simply tries in vain to throw garbage hoping he will find away to beat people rather than learning good habits. general stuff like that. Would you overload him constantly? Would you out class him and frustrate him? Would you beat him till he adapts or dies? Would you knock him out? Would you escalate the training by adding in other ranges where he thinks he will be better able to fight in (but is totally outclassed in) just to show him he needs to work on what he's being taught rather than his over confident idea of his abilities to somehow magically be able to fight better when he can't fight in the range he is working. Anyway, I"m just curious how others would deal with a situation like this. Also realize that our goal is to help him improve. However in this context we are not a commercial endeavor anymore but more of a training group who will allow some people to pay to join (at least until they achieve a level to be useful for upper level training purposes) so the concept of losing a student from a business stand point is moot, but the idea of losing a potential training partner is poignant. I am interested to hear your ideas __________________ eXcessiveFORCE. If you must use force, make it excessive.

04-24-2008, 09:32 AM	#4 (permalink)
eXcessiveForce Excessive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Missouri Posts: 2,690	Yeah we made a mistake with him. When he first came in he was too cocky, (he asked me the first day if I thought I could beat him in sparring) realize that we are now a training group. It was a private group of instructors only we started to find we needed new blood So we decided to let people show up. Then we figured we might as well charge them so they don't waste our time. So while we teach, that isn't the purpose of the group the purpose really is for the instructors to get a workout amongst ourself and against people who might do strange things. So while two of us do share the role of teaching it is a very informal structure. Our mistake with this guy is he didn't have the right gear in the beginning so I let him wear a FIST tactical helmet until his gear came in. So he was able to walk through some awful shots without realizing how much damage he would be taking. That stopped once he put on the normal headgear we use. But we only sparred with him just above his level. All of us have been working on our weaknesses because unlike the rest he hasn't learned to be any kind of threat yet. The others within a few weeks would close up their game, and they wouldn't give us the junk they came in with anymore. This guy is stuck about half way. His game isn't tight, but at least he now has a bit of a defense. He made a comment the other day to the other person who does the training (it was a playful bit of smack talk) It got him beat severely. They were working boxing and trapping range only. The person doing the training is most comfortable in that range. So I'm trying to decide what to do to him tonight when I get to work with him. I don't want his attitude to annoy everyone else, but I'd like to see the guy "get it" He's got the chance to be a monster if he'd just stop searching and listen. When we started him on jabs and crosses for instance, he kept trying to throw spin backfists, and other crap. So even the newest guys were killing him just using jabs and crosses. Even months later, he still will jump to low probability techniques rather than increase his skills in the high probability ones. Perhaps it is time to let him see what the level he thinks he's at is like. __________________ eXcessiveFORCE. If you must use force, make it excessive.

04-24-2008, 10:34 AM	#7 (permalink)
eXcessiveForce Excessive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Missouri Posts: 2,690	My knowledge of actual judo is not what it should be. At this point we are only training them in stand up. the progression we are working on for the new guys is. Boxing/trapping Kicking Clinch Weapons thows/takedowns/Ground Ground + weapons We are just getting people up to where they can begin kicking. What we have found is if you introduce kicking too soon they don't get the boxing down well enough. And when you introduce kicking they have to reassemble their tools to make them work. __________________ eXcessiveFORCE. If you must use force, make it excessive.

04-24-2008, 11:58 AM	#9 (permalink)
eXcessiveForce Excessive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Missouri Posts: 2,690	he was 6'3, had previous training, and we needed new people to beat on, to test things on I mean. I don't want to give the impression that this guy is a bad guy, he's not, he just isn't very mature and hasn't learned yet. We are hoping he will come around because we are now a small group and as I said we were starting to get a bit stagnant in our growth. New people that have a 6+ in reach advantage and 5 inch height advantage are good to have around to see what works and what doesn't. If we can train him up and still school him with all his natural attributes it is further validation that 1. the stuff we are doing works, 2. we can teach it to others effectively. __________________ eXcessiveFORCE. If you must use force, make it excessive.

04-24-2008, 12:33 PM	#12 (permalink)
eXcessiveForce Excessive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Missouri Posts: 2,690	In this case he wants to learn, the problem isn't that, it's that he thinks he knows stuff, but it doesn't work. Sometimes someone has to really know they don't know anything before you can teach them. He still hasn't let go and grasped the fact that he doesn't know anything. Or what he thinks he knows is wrong. It's been a slow process, 2 steps forward one step back. He does pay, but financial considerations do not matter. It's coming down to where if he does not learn faster he will not be useful to us. He would still be good fodder for new people coming in who do want to listen. We want to train him, but we don't want to carry him. He probably leaves with headaches after most training sessions already, But I'm thinking we may have to decisively show him that he is not nearly as skilled as he think he is. It's hard for some people to admit they don't know anything after they have put in years of training. __________________ eXcessiveFORCE. If you must use force, make it excessive.

04-24-2008, 09:07 AM	#3 (permalink)
Mike Brewer Moderate Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 8,167	I think any instructor who teaches for any length of time has run into this same guy. My approach as a classmate is different from my approach as an instructor. As a classmate, I train at the level he thinks he's at. I've always had a rule that I train at the level and intensity of the junior partner. If I'm on the floor with a spaz who doesn't listen - one whose cockiness and lack of attention could get me hurt - I'm going to spar with him the way I would if he were as good as he thinks. He'll probably lose often, and he'll be frustrated by it. That goes one of two ways. He either gets the hint that maybe he's not the baddest guy on the floor, or he gets mad and ramps things up and gets himself knocked out. Again, I'm playing at his level of intensity. If he comes after me with the intent to do harm, I'll tune him up. That's the kind of peer pressure that keeps a lot of places like boxing gyms in line, and the very mechanism that keeps egos in check. When I was living with and training with Vunak, there were a few of us he'd rely on to do this kind of thing from time to time. He had several instructor-level people who thought very highly of themselves, and he found that it was hard to teach them new things while they were floating on an ego cloud. Most people came to train with him in groups, ordinarily made up of the instructor and a couple or three of his students. In some cases, the instructor would beat his students pillar to post as if showing off was the point of the whole trip. Paul would very often in these situations give me a signal and I'd do whatever I could to feed them some humble pie. Luckily, Paul never asked me to do that against someone better than me. As an instructor, that taught me a valuable lesson. It's good to have a senior student or two that you can put on the guy to show him where he really stands. All too often, the mindset you're talking about leads to bullies. Worse for them, maybe, is that it leads to an inability to learn or grow. The way I've worked it in the past is, I'll choose a lesson plan that works to this guy's weakest areas. Preferably, it'll be an area where a lot of his classmates are very strong. As you go through the lesson, everybody gets compliments but this guy. Make a big deal out of how great everyone is progressing, and do it individually, leaving your problem child out of that praise. Don't be as unsubtle as to say something like "Everybody but shitface over here did great!" Just make the rounds during class and stop people now and then to commend them on their progress. End the day with some sparring. Match the guy up with your senior people ONLY. His ego is probably already in overdrive, and if you put him with one of those folks you already complimented, he may try to beat on them to make up for it and make himself feel superior. So put him in against someone who can walk him like a dog and let them play to his perceived ability and intensity. He'll get his ass kicked, and he'll probably feel bad about it. That's good. As the instructor, your job is now to pull him aside and instruct. Have a private chat with him and tell him you saw how badly he felt during the class. Having the experience you have, you also see what might have caused him to have such a rough night. Tell him that it's your job as an instructor to help him grow, but that what he needs isn't technical - it's mental. Point out to him point blank that you think his ego is getting in the way. Tell him the reason he got worked over is because he often comes across like a know-it-all. Tell him like a man, straight to his face and as honest and blunt as can be, and then tell him that if he wants to really progress in these arts, he's got to learn to let the insecurities go. He's got to learn that it's okay not to know. After all, if he knew it all already, he wouldn't need you. Plant the seed that if he can ditch his need to come across as better than he really is, he'll actually get better. Then let him go home and stew on it. He'll come around. Or he won't. But it's better than having some dickhead on the floor and it's more in line with what an instructor's job really is. You're not just there to teach techniques.

04-24-2008, 12:34 PM	#13 (permalink)
eXcessiveForce Excessive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Missouri Posts: 2,690	This is all about developing him efficiently, before he ends up with brain damage. lol __________________ eXcessiveFORCE. If you must use force, make it excessive.

04-24-2008, 12:45 PM	#14 (permalink)
Tant01 Humble Moderator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Northern Ca. USA Posts: 4,665	A little deviation from the plan might be in order. You don't want him bloodied up so I'm back to throws, grappling. Show him the error of his way (gently) I'm sure you've got some painful compliance holds you could demonstrate? __________________ "In all countries where personal freedom is valued, however much each individual may rely on legal redress, the right of each to carry arms - and these the best and the sharpest - for his own protection in case of extremity, is a right of nature indelible and irrepressible, and the more it is sought to be repressed the more it will recur." James Paterson

04-24-2008, 12:56 PM	#15 (permalink)
eXcessiveForce Excessive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Missouri Posts: 2,690	I think we can handle him even in stand up. If I let him throw kicks which I know he thinks is going to equalize things he's going to get severely thrashed, He will never land anything at all and will be sufficiently softened up by the end of the night without any long lasting physical effects. I just have been trying no to break him. So often if they take a beating too soon they end up timid and fearful, so we waste a lot of time trying to build their confidence back. Some people learn the easy way, some people the hard way. We have tried telling him that he's going the hard way, perhaps it is time to show him that he is going down the hard way. __________________ eXcessiveFORCE. If you must use force, make it excessive.

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