Mike Brewer

The previous title of this thread was, upon a second reading, more misleading than funny. It's a topic I really want people to read and get into, so I've changed it in the interest of honesty. For the record, I do still think Ahsen was kind of a dick about sharing this same kind of information with me, though.

I've spent the last two weeks frequenting the Islamic Cultural Center here in Washington D.C.

The Islamic Center Washington DC - Home

I signed up to take some classes, including Arabic, and have found the people there to be as friendly and helpful as any I've ever met. This doesn't surprise me in the least, and it doesn't surprise me that they have very few inhibitions about sharing their experiences of home. I thought I'd share some of the stories they've told, and in the interest of keeping things as non-political as I can, I'm not going to give any names. As a side note, we haven't discussed politics at all, and I neither know where they stand on big issues, nor what they believe about the domestic situation.

My first Arabic Language class was the most impressive experience there by far. I walked in on the class eight or nine lessons late, and I have a lot of catch up to play, so the teacher there had me spend my time primarily copying the alphabet and numbers and learning to write a few basic sentences so I'd begin to recognize the differences in the letters as they appear at the beginning, middle, and end of words. He taught me the vowel sounds and explained that they are not independent letters in Arabic, but what we westerners might call "accent marks" that denote which vowel to pronounce after a given consanant. The class paused at prayer time, and I stayed at my desk writing while he excused himself for fifteen minutes or so to pray. He then came back and tutored me privately so that I might have an easier time catching up. We talked about how tough Arabic is to learn, and he gave me some pointers. He also talked about the kind of discipline that is used in Arab/Islamic schools. He said that most often when children fail to do their work or misbehave, the teachers either beat them on the hands and fingers or place them in what we might call "stress positions" for a given length of time. They'll be made to lean awkwardly over bent knees or stand with arms extended up over their heads while facing the wall for five or ten minutes. Sort of their version of "Time Out." The teacher of the class recommended a few books, apart from the language textbook I am supposed to pick up. One that I bought today is called "The Great Theft" by Khaled Abou El Fadl. That the author is an American Muslim didn't dent his credibility in the least.

I have to say that I am far more impressed with these people and their willingness to share than my experiences with people like Ahsen prepared me for. Ahsen was such a stubborn, cynical ass about sharing information, it really did make me wonder what I'd find when I visited such a huge Mosque and cultural center. Walking in as a Western white-boy, I wasn't sure what to expect. I have been very, very pleasantly surprised, though. Things such as the teacher's willingness to privately tutor me (these are free classes, by the way) made me very grateful. When I expressed my gratitude, it was met with humility and dismissal. "You are new. I owe it to you to help you learn." Was the reply from the teacher.

My classmates are a diverse and helpful group as well. Made up of a cross section that ranges from elderly white woman to twenty-something Nigerian, they're all equally helpful and eager to learn. I haven't gotten into any serious discussions about Islamism and radicalism as yet, but I've put in a few formal requests of the Director of the Center expressing my desire to ask him about these things. He has apparently been very, very busy. But as open and willing to share as these folks have been so far, I'm looking forward to the chance to discuss it with him.

So Ahsen's decision to act all righteous and holier-than-thou, while decidedly irritating, is really of no consequence. His decision to talk down to me and call me a bigot and a fear-monger haven't hindered right-minded Muslims from sharing their faith. Apparently, the Muslims here have read from a different book than he, and have welcomed questions with open arms and more importantly - open minds.

I'll post more in the weeks to come. In the mean time, a heartfelt thanks to the teachers and staff at the Islamic Center for sharing so far.

Mike Brewer

Been reading that book I mentioned earlier. I've only had it a day, and already it's been very engrossing. I have to say, I'm surprised that it came so highly recommended, because the author is a man who was under some pretty serious fire from many Muslim communities. He was appointed by George W. Bush to serve on the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom. Identification with George W. Bush is often enough to sink someone like this in terms of credibility among Muslims - especially when his posting is to promote Islam and its modern, moderate views. That said, El Fadl is an accomplished, influential, and recognized Islamic scholar and jurist, and he has some pretty important things to say.

Perhaps one of the most eye opening is his theory that Islam is currently undergoing its own Reformation, not entirely dissimilar to the Catholic Reformation. The Catholic Reformation was a bloody, ugly time in Christianity, and the idea that Islam is in the beginning of its own was, well, odd to read coming from a scholar of such accomplishment. Equally important was the author's assertion that Muslims and the "Muslim Voice" have serious credibility issues in the West. This leads to the very things that Ahsen was talking about. It's the suspicion that anything associated with Islam is associated with political Islam. That's obviously not true. The flip side, El Fadl says, is that the Western Voice is often heard by Muslims with immediate suspicion and cynicism. That would explain Ahsen's reaction to my questions. What the author suggested was that Islam and Muslims had to confront the idea that it is an imperative to look at their faith with a self-critical eye. He even went so far as to say that "The reason for such an introspective and self-critical look is to ask: Does the tradition of Islam, with its inherited system of beliefs and convictions, contribute to the commission of these acts of ugliness?" The acts of ugliness to which he referred in that quote were acts of terrorism, and I found it strange that I was reading a Muslim scholar who actually advocated turning a critical eye inward on the faith and accepting some responsibility for the horrible acts committed by extremists. It was also a little uncomfortable.

I say it was uncomfortable for one reason above all the others. That reason is that it showed me some of my own prejudices. I can see that I am one of the Western masses that tends to associate Islam with the popular media image of politicized religion and extremism. As hard as I've tried not to become a bigot, I am bombarded by the same media images of terrorists and Osama bin Laden issuing fatwas to kill my countrymen wherever "good Muslims" might find them. I realized that I do indeed have a negative image of Islam, and while I don't feel it's reached the level of bigotry, it has colored my perceptions. I have genuinely sought more balanced points of view, though, and I've tried to build in my own mind a more accurate picture of what Islam really is. That is to say, I have not wanted to be prejudiced against Islam, and I have really wanted to take steps against such ideas. I guess I figured that wanting to avoid prejudice was the same as not having it.

What I've read so far has compelled me to believe that both sides are being fairly whiny about their positions. Muslims very often insult Westerners because we are not familiar with their Islamic culture, or they poke at our ignorance and harp on us for mistakes in terminology. Not to pick on Ahsen here, but it's much like his post about me using the term "Moderate Islam." As a Westerner, and a non-Muslim, how the hell am I supposed to know about such things unless someone shares? And when someone shares in a belittling or nasty way, am I supposed to just thank them for being jerks? What that develops into is a situation in which Muslims feel Westerners should be making greater efforts to understand them, and Westerners feel Muslims ought to be making greater efforts to assimilate. We have almost mutually decided not to take the other person's views to heart, or to even consider them when discussing tender issues.

For example, Western minds do not often consider that it might be necessary to approach Muslims with some consideration for their innate sense of things like unity. To a Muslim, it is a deep rooted foundation of the faith that all Muslims are seen as parts of one person, transcending national and social boundaries. In many cases, disagreeing about some issues is akin to disavowing the faith, and as dispicable as some who pervert Islam might be, denouncing them outright is very much like asking a man to cut off his own hand or some other part of his own body. We in the West don't understand that the same way they do. When one of our own goes rogue and breaks the law, we tend to ostracize and punish them. We expect that Muslims should be capable of and willing to do the same, not stopping to think that in many cases, doing so puts them at odds with their faith. Likewise, many Muslims expect us to respect that without even understanding it. They sometimes expect that we should be able to excuse things that our foundations and our culture tells us are reprehensible, and they very often neglect to consider that we sometimes need assurances in the face of horrible and ugly misdeeds.

In short, there's a real unwillingness to see ourselves as the other side sees us.

So while no one may be interested in posting on this thread, I'm going to use it as a forum to talk about the things I'm learning about Islam, and the discoveries and hopefully abolition of my own prejudices along the way. I'd love for people who know about this stuff to step in and share what they know - Ahsen included - so that hopefully at least one more Westerner will be able to understand the things none of us currently seem to understand. Who knows? Maybe they'll be able to admit some of their own prejudices along the way, too. In so doing, maybe we'll both get past a few of them.

Mike Brewer

Class this Saturday. Will add more entries here afterward.

Tom Yum

Isn't the best way to learn a language by dating a long-haired dictionary with nice legs and beautiful eyes?

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Love it, leave it or fix it.

Wolfeye589

Here here!

In all seriousness though, It's surely an interesting post. I've had limited experience with Islam, it's good to finally be able to hear and learn from it without also hearing about someone blowing something up (as the media is want to report).

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"Igitur qui desiderat pacem; praeparet bellum."
"If you want peace; prepare for war."

Mike Brewer

I just sent that picture to my wife with the following:

[Tom] says the best way for me to learn Arabic is to date a long-haired dictionary like this one...with pretty eyes and long legs and...

Her reply was as follows:

You tell him you'll be moving into his house with all your shit, and I'll be kicking that little hussy's ass!

So I guess I'm stuck with more...conventional lessons.

Mike Brewer

By the way, the book I've been reading is very clearly anti-Wahabbism. The author apparently opposes Wahabbist Islam on the grounds that Abd- al Wahab cherry picked the Qur'an and precedents to suit his nationalist agenda, and in the process substituted earthly, human concepts for the Divine. By transforming Islam into a form of Arabism, he advocated the perversion of many parts of the faith and he destroyed all forms of critical analysis within his brand of Islam.

Unfortunately, some of his ideas - even the bad ones - managed to get absorbed into the mainstream. Others, such as the notion that Muslims should not judge other Muslims or call them infidels, allowed the Wahabbist ideology to spread unopposed despite the fact that Abd al-Wahab and his followers regularly declared those who disagreed with his ideologies to be infidels and ordered them killed.

The author is a real challenge on all sides. His book is one I highly recommend. I have been reading it with a highlighter and ink pen in hand, devouring the book and noting everything, it seems. It really inspires questions, and I can see how it would seriously challenge Muslims to turn a self-critical eye toward their faith. Remarkably, it does so without being condescending or insulting, and the author never fails to draw stark lines between radical (he calls them puritans) ideologies and moderate, though different views of his own peaceful faith.

I'm looking forward to taking it to my lesson with me.

Mike Brewer

Good class today, and I got a lot more than a language lesson.

I want to start by telling a story about the Mosque/Cultural Center where these classes happen. First of all, the classes are free, taught by a volunteer who appears to me at least, a devout Muslim. The fact that these classes are free means anyone who wishes to learn may come and go as they please. This set the stage for a wonderful display of tolerance on the part of my teacher and classmates.

The "problem" arose when a man who is obviously mentally disturbed wandered into class. The impression I got was that he is a neighborhood wino or homeless guy. He smelled, was unwashed, and rambled to himself no matter what was going on around him. He talked over everyone - including the teacher - and he was as racist as racists come. He vented about how the Muslim way was inferior to the Christian way (what "way" was never made clear). He insulted and hounded an Argentinian woman who came to class for the first time, telling her that the reason she didn't understand Arabic was because she was "...just an uneducated woman. These people are probably used to dealing with men who are able to read." She is a professor, by the way. I was sitting next to a new acquaintance, Peter, who is from Sudan. He immigrated to the U.S. twelve years ago and is not only a citizen, but appears to be the kind of always-smiling optimist that comes from a place of true oppression to true freedom and appreciates what he has. Our Deranged friend turned to us and started giving me a line of shit, calling me every racist name in the book from cracker to whitey to the Jerimiah-Wright-indiced "European," and telling me (even though I'd not said a word to him) that all white people are evil and they are afraid of black men who know "the Truth." Literally every member of the class was exchanging glances back and forth - including the teacher. The teacher tried repeatedly to sit the man down, and told him several times very politely to "leave my class please." He would then carry on with the lesson as though this prick weren't even there.

Me? I wanted very much to stand up and make the man shut his mouth. This came to a visible (apparently) head when the man began telling me that I must be a devil because I have blue eyes. He would antagonize me, saying "Don't turn those blue eyes toward me. I don't want to be cursed." My demeanor must have changed, because Peter put a hand on my arm and quietly shook his head as if to say, "He's just a crazy homeless guy. Let it go." The crazy guy then started trashing white people to Peter, as if looking for an ally in a fellow black man. Peter shook his head and said something to the effect of, "Where's all this coming from? You're crazy." I then returned the favor of a gentle shake of my head in Peter's direction.

This man berated everyone in the room, and the teacher never flinched. On the one hand, I was disappointed that he didn't take some kind of physical control of the situation, but I realized that it was because I am very accustomed to handling things like that - blatant offenses directed confrontationally at me - in a decidedly different fashion. I was almost offended that the teacher would let this asshole talk to us like this. But he treated it the exact same way when the man denounced Islam. He took it when the man said that Islam was an inferior religion to Christianity, and that the Arabs are "dirty people." His reaction was not one of passivity from fear or intimidation (even the smallest girl in the room outweighed this idiot, who couldn't have been more than about 5'5" and 120 pounds at what I'd guess to be close to 65 years old). It was genuine tolerance.

My mind played a lot of games with me today. I was sitting in one of the most recognizable Muslim centers in the city, and one of the most popular mosques anywhere around. For that reason, I didn't want to disrespect the place or the people by knocking this moron out. But on the other hand, I really did feel like choking him unconscious and dragging him outside. The whole class appeared to be equally uneasy, and I know all of us were imagining some form of either violence or escape. Many of the women, especially, looked like they were ready simply to leave. So I'm sitting there conflicted as hell, with every bone in my body aching to just lay this guy out so he'll shut up, and the teacher of the class is going on about his business like nothing's wrong, even when the guy hatefully attacked his religion and his people.

Now the teacher of the class is a native-born Arab. I don't know specifically which country he comes from, but he's not a long-time American and may not even be a citizen yet. He definitely came to America in his recent adulthood, and so the assault on his faith and his culture - in HIS mosque, no less - was something I was amazed he would stomach. We met eyes once or twice, the teacher and I, with mine screaming "Just let me make him shut up" and his screaming "Don't bother." Then, for some reason, I was a little embarrassed that I was amazed by the teacher's restraint. As a Westerner, I am accustomed to Muslim Outrage in the press. I'm accustomed to seeing images of Muslims marching in the streets demanding death to infidels and America splashed across CNN. I was not, perhaps a little shamefully, prepared to see a Muslim teacher in his own mosque behaving so tolerantly of someone like this abrasive, offensive man telling him that his race and his faith were dirty and inferior.

So after class was over, I picked up a paper written by Dr. Adbullah M Khouj, the Director of the Center. It is called War and Peace in Islam. It's a paper written in 1991, prior to the post-9/11 view of Islam that exists today. One of the telling passages - in a chapter on Jihad - is quoted from the Qur'an:

"O Mankind! We created you from a single pair of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of Allah is he who is the most righteous of you... (49:13)"

It was the "that ye may know each other, not that ye despise each other" bit that caught my attention. Seems Allah would like it very much if we all managed to find a way to get along and be accepting and tolerant of our various different nations and tribes. Again, this in the section about Jihad. It definitely got me thinking, especially after the level of acceptance shown in the two hours before.

I'll definitely be doing some reading and thinking in the days and weeks to come.

Ahsen

Jihad is something to strive at something difficult.

Kudos to you Mike , I'm glad you are taking this step in going to washington Mosque
even though we did had our ups and downs.
I hope you understood why i couldn't help you
sometime you need someone explaining you on face to face, forum communication doesn't help.
Anyway good job and keep it up.

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eat ma shorts

Tom Yum

Not sure what this guy in your classroom is trying to do, Mike - but it looks like poor classroom ettiquette on his part.

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Love it, leave it or fix it.

ttruscott

Because someone is against extremism and terrorism doesn't mean they don't have an agenda.

All Muslims have a duty to spread Sharia. Some choose to do it extremely and others by stealth. It is not the sectarian violence that will make Europe and NA Muslim, it is the steady creep of Sharia, the granting of special favours to smooth Muslim sensibilities.

The word "appeasement" from WWII comes to mind..

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"Fear, not compassion, restrains the wicked."

J3551

What a refreshing read and as an outsider looking in at MMA for the first time there is something quite poignant about this thread. Before I started researching mixed martial arts, I had a stereotype in my mind that this sector would be predominantly men just trying to beat the crap out of each other for no particular reason other then testosterone. Images in my head supported by the images we see on our TV and in films that tell us the US is a nation of homicidal serial killers steeped in gang culture and hell bent on destroying the world. I could see an appeal of MMA street fighting without rules not just exclusive to the US but across the world. But you know what? The more I research the more I begin to understand what serious MMA is all about. In the same way Muslims have been stereotyped and have become demonised and portrayed by the media as a culture to be afraid of, which I never bought into btw. So I’m beginning to see how this type of sport is trying to pull it self up by its boot straps to be recognised as a professional body of people. Much in the same way the UK Pool was in 1982/3. Pool halls prior to this was seen as dodgy, they were dens of vice and crime, if you frequented them you were either a hustler or drug pusher (according to the media). In 1984 (don’t quote me on the exact date) Pool in the UK became legit, a recognised sport set up by the Professional Pool Players Association, they never got the same status as Snooker but they did get the recognition, sorry gone off topic. The point Im trying to make here is that stereotyping is easy . There is a video that one of your forum members posted and you know what I cant find it now… but the gist was that the actions of a couple of guys on vast amounts of alcohol is/was not the a true representation MMA and the serious players and professionals are working their asses off to break free of this stereotype. Im starting to understand that MMA is more then just another sport, there is depth and it has discipline , there is philosophy and structure and a real camaraderie. Its not just a bunch of guys either, women get a look in too. I feel quite ashamed of being a sheep and having first entered your space with such a pre-conceived idea of who, what and where. I still have much to learn and Ill never be an active participant of the sport but certainly Ill be watching and reporting with a new passive respect.

What a great thread, education education education

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Just Jess

Ahsen

Well least Mike is making a good job in order to understand us.
I guess little understanding will help you not becoming narrowminded

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eat ma shorts

Mike Brewer

Honestly, no. I don't understand in the least. You came across when I asked as if you were being very confrontational and as if you were calling me a liar with dishonest intentions. Given the experiences I have had here, I don't understand your reasoning one bit. I'm not angry with you or anything, but I stand firmly by what I said to you before in suggesting that when someone asks to learn about your faith, you should be willing to share. Had it not been for the fact that I truly want to learn about it, your responses would have driven me off with an even worse impression than I had before.

I would suggest that just as I have discovered some of my own biases and prejudices, maybe you should do a little more to uncover your own. Perhaps in the future, you'll be a better mindset to help those seeking information instead of ridiculing them, questioning their intentions, and labelling them the way you did with me.

Please don't take the above offensively, Ahsen. I'm not trying to insult or offend. I'm simply stating the way I saw your response and the effect it had on me. I've gotten a much different impression from the people here, and maybe that's something you should think about. The "understanding" part must go both ways, Ahsen. It is irresponsible and selfish to remain set in your own ways while you demand that others understand you if you're not willing to try harder to understand them. My approach before was one that is very, very common among Westerners. Perhaps if you understood us better, you would have been able to see past the parts that offended you and realize that we simply don't often have any other ways of expressing questions. Given what we know and what we're so often exposed to, you might find that your ability to help others understand your faith will go up immensely the more you understand their points of view.

Mike Brewer

T,
The simple fact of the matter is, all groups and even all individuals try on a regular and consistent basis to advance their own agendas. You do it, I do it, we all do it. Any time you ask for the things that are important to you, any time you cast a vote, and any time you donate to a cause or charity, you're taking steps to advance the ideas you believe are important. American Muslims aren't parading around on the Capitol to try and turn the Supreme Court into a Sharia Court. The people I've been talking to here haven't been rampaging around or even writing letters to Congress when they are insulted. That was the point of my last entry about the class. These folks appear to me to be very tolerant, open-minded people who are grateful to live in a country in which they can practice their faith so freely and still have the luxuries in life that places like Saudi, Iran, and others simply don't afford them. The idea that there's a vast Muslim conspiracy trying to "stealth" its way into the American system of justice is something you ought ot look at from the other side. If someone, for example, tried to insinuate that America was trying to spread Americanism and take over the justice systems, economies, etc. of Iraq and Afghanistan, you'd likely argue that they were being ridiculous. I certainly would. Likewise, if you argued that liberals wanted to advance government rule over everything and institute a brand of communism-by-stealth, I'd disagree. If you argued that Conservatives were trying to institute a mandatory Christian faith in this country and outlaw scientific ideas like evolution, I'd say you were mistaken. Likewise, I think you are mistaken when you argue that "Muslims" are trying to supplant American ideals and institutions just because they try to advance the ideas and agendas that are important to them.

Advancing our own agendas is one of the things guaranteed us by the Constitution. It's what "petition[ing] the government for a redress of grievances" is all about. We have the right to approach our government and suggest the things that are important to us, no matter how small a group of "us" there might be. We have the right to assemble and try to sway popular opinion in our direction, too. It's not divisive, and it isn't wrong. It is a God-given right - inalienable, one might say - that makes up one of the most critical elements of our country's foundation.

I am not going to argue that there aren't any Muslims out there trying to remake America in an Islamic image. I'm sure there are. But I would strongly caution you to look at your own agendas and your own motives and see if it's fair to apply your criticisms of others to yourself from time to time. Are you nefariously trying to "advance your own agendas by stealth" when you vote? You are surely voting for things others don't like. Since almost nothing in this country passes the popular vote unanymously, that means that to some others, you are surely trying to supplant their best interests and replace them with your own, doesn't it?

I think one of the first steps in this whole process of understanding is taking a good hard look at the overall picture from above. Chances are, "they" see us in much the same way as we see "them." No matter who "they are." It's the willingness to dismiss others as deceitful, dishonest, or even just inferior somehow that makes mutual respect and understanding so tough to come by.