Tant01

You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers...

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"In all countries where personal freedom is valued, however much each individual may rely on legal redress, the right of each to carry arms - and these the best and the sharpest - for his own protection in case of extremity, is a right of nature indelible and irrepressible, and the more it is sought to be repressed the more it will recur."

James Paterson

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jubaji

And that nice Mr. Chamberlain would never let anything disturb the peaceful and invulnerable utopia we have now.

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jubaji

I believe the appropriate opener in a situation like this is, "Ahem!"


Crime Rate in Countries, Top Ten Countries With Highest Reported Crime Rates

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jubaji

Did I remember to say, "Ahem!"?

Europe’s most violent nation - Times Online

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TTEscrima

Amen Bro...they'll have my bullets long before they get my guns.

I swear all the people in UK who complain our rights to own guns are suffering from penis envy.

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My work is done, what else is there to say.

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/m...tml#post328507

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darrianation

It must be nice to live in such bliss…I believe the word is “sheeple”.

You think because you live in political stability you assume that it will always be so. Your population lives at the whim of your leaders should they decide another course.

Military stability--I have been to Europe many times- Germany, France, Spain, and others. I find the mindset there is far different than it is here. I have also worked a time or two (or three) along side various European military units and England is the best military (on your side of the pond) but Europe as a whole lacks a military mindset and under most circumstances couldn’t fight their way out of a paper bag.

If Europe were to be invaded, say by Russia, it would be America that would come and save your asses again.

I am not trying to be mean I am just being truthful.

The founding principles of America work, it breaks down when government gets to powerful and moves away from the founding principles. Once you understand those principles it is easy to see where we’ve gone wrong.

Unfortunately for us, folks have gotten the idea into their heads that more government is the answer and our leaders ignore the constitution and the federalist principles. Do you know who puts those ideas into people’s minds? Government, helped along by the left.

I don’t want to sound extreme here but our founders were extreme revolutionaries who went to war against our own government the king of England because of excessive taxation and to much governmental interference. They felt it important to leave the legacy of resistance to us because they understood the nature of man that it is in his nature once he gains some authority to practice unrighteous dominion. These encroachments are slow, mostly unnoticeable until one day you wake up and wonder what happened.

BTW, that legacy is one, distrust of government. And 2, the 2nd amendment.

To Quote Ronald Reagan:

“Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.”

You say we live in “different times”, we don’t, Tyranny is everywhere I’ve seen it. Only a fool would go through life believing the government looks out for his best interests.

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The law of tyranny:

1. Any power that can be abused will be abused
2. Abuse always expands to fill the limits of resistance to it.
3. If people don't resist the abuses of others, they will have no one to resist the abuses of themselves, and tyranny will prevail.


Welcome to the Socialist States of Amerika . Coming soon Jan 20th 2009!

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darrianation

Good find!

__________________
The law of tyranny:

1. Any power that can be abused will be abused
2. Abuse always expands to fill the limits of resistance to it.
3. If people don't resist the abuses of others, they will have no one to resist the abuses of themselves, and tyranny will prevail.


Welcome to the Socialist States of Amerika . Coming soon Jan 20th 2009!

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darrianation

Wait...We didn't even make the top ten? I'm disapointed.

__________________
The law of tyranny:

1. Any power that can be abused will be abused
2. Abuse always expands to fill the limits of resistance to it.
3. If people don't resist the abuses of others, they will have no one to resist the abuses of themselves, and tyranny will prevail.


Welcome to the Socialist States of Amerika . Coming soon Jan 20th 2009!

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darrianation

What restictions?

__________________
The law of tyranny:

1. Any power that can be abused will be abused
2. Abuse always expands to fill the limits of resistance to it.
3. If people don't resist the abuses of others, they will have no one to resist the abuses of themselves, and tyranny will prevail.


Welcome to the Socialist States of Amerika . Coming soon Jan 20th 2009!

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darrianation

That outlaws most of my guns.

This is a pretty typical list…I hear very similar things from friends who are gun owning dems (mostly hunters).

I keep hoping to find something we see eye to eye on but unfortunately this list puts the law abiding gun owner, who owns guns for self-defense not hunting, at a grave disadvantage to the criminal.

There is some misinformation here though, for instance:

Waiting periods: There is NO statistical difference in crimes being committed comparing three day waiting periods and no waiting periods.

No concealed weapons and No un-concealed weapons—in other words unarmed.

no Internet weapons sales under any of the above mentioned categories—All internet sales, the weapons has to be sent to a licensed dealer (FFL holder). A copy of the FFL has to be sent to the selling party before the weapon is mailed.

But thanks for leaving me my hunting rifle.

Some facts:

Fact: CCW holders do not commit crimes:

Right-to-carry license holders are more law-abiding than the general public. In Florida, for example, the firearm crime rate among license holders, annually averaging only several crimes per 100,000 licensees, is a fraction of the rate for the state as a whole. Since the carry law went into effect in 1987, less than 0.02% of Florida carry permits have been revoked because of gun crimes committed by license holders.

CCW Concealed Carry Weapons Permit - Facts & Statistics

"Add Gun Control To Litany Of Misbegotten Gov't Plans"

John Lott's website

Using cross-sectional time-series data for U.S. counties from 1977 to 1992, we find that allowing citizens to carry concealed weapons deters violent crimes, without increasing accidental deaths. If those states without right-to-carry concealed gun provisions had adopted them in 1992, county- and state-level data indicate that approximately 1,500 murders would have been avoided yearly.

http://www.kc3.com/pdf/lott.pdf

What Gun Controllers Don't Want You to Know:

I found that the gun control groups consistently lied or twisted minor factoids taken out of context in their articles. This begged the question: if they are lying to advance their agenda, can we really trust the utopian outcome they promote as true? - by Howard Nemerov.

What_You_Dont_Know

The Truth about "The Florida Model":

Violent crime rates are highest overall in states with laws severely limiting or prohibiting the carrying of concealed firearms for self-defense". (FBI Uniform Crime Reports, 1992).

fla_model

Facts the anti-gunners will categorically ignore.

The truth about concealed carry:



The myth of gun control:



Students for concealed carry at George Mason University:



The history of Gun control:

__________________
The law of tyranny:

1. Any power that can be abused will be abused
2. Abuse always expands to fill the limits of resistance to it.
3. If people don't resist the abuses of others, they will have no one to resist the abuses of themselves, and tyranny will prevail.


Welcome to the Socialist States of Amerika . Coming soon Jan 20th 2009!

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darrianation

GUN CONTROL

To answer your question, of course I can’t guarantee anything. No one can guarantee anything including zero gun violence if all guns were banned. People can wish there will be a drastic reduction in gun violence but those people are wish-worshipers…It isn’t reality.

If all guns were banned I think first of all you would see A rise in organized crime organizations smuggling weapons into the US just like drugs. Edited to add- and you make a lot criminals out of otherwise good folks who will refuse to give up their guns and/or seek guns on the black market. You give up the legal gun trade for the ilegal gun trade but guns will still be out there.

Another thing you can do is take a look at places where strict gun laws exist to find what the results are.

Before the Washington DC gun ban went into place gun crime was already dropping, after the ban the murder rate rose.

D.C.'s brief specifically points to Great Britain's handgun ban in January 1997. But the number of deaths and injuries from gun crime in England and Wales increased 340 percent in the seven years from 1998 to 2005. -- John Lott

In 1996, Australia outlawed semi-automatic rifles and many pump action shotguns and other semi-automatic weapons. As of 2000, the Australian government confiscated and destroyed about 660,000 privately owned firearms. However, between 1996-1998 armed robberies rose 73 percent, assaults rose 16 percent, and unlawful entries rose 8 percent. Murders also rose slightly. --- "Guns down under," Reason, Australia, p. 10, 10/1/00.

Germany has some of the strictist gun laws in Europe and like Washington, D.C., a gun ready for defensive use in your home is outlawed. Despite this the annual number of firearm-related murders throughout Germany rose 76% between 1992-1995. --- Library of Congress, p. 69.

What can we make from all this? Gun control simply doesn’t work.

__________________
The law of tyranny:

1. Any power that can be abused will be abused
2. Abuse always expands to fill the limits of resistance to it.
3. If people don't resist the abuses of others, they will have no one to resist the abuses of themselves, and tyranny will prevail.


Welcome to the Socialist States of Amerika . Coming soon Jan 20th 2009!

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darrianation

Now, we can talk about the morality of private gun ownership and folks can trade statistics back and forth all day long but the fact is, even though there is ample evidence to show anti-gun laws do not protect the citizenry from violence or the fact that in places where concealed carry have been instituted violent crime rates have dropped but at the end of the day it is really a mute point. What gets lost in all this debate is the fact it is a Constitutional right for every non-felon citizen to keep and bear arms…It’s the LAW!

Historically, one of the primary reasons for the 2nd amendment was the people’s distrust of government and standing armies as dangerous to individual liberty.

In early times it was considered the duty of every male to keep a rifle with few exceptions. The American Revolution strengthened the traditional suspicion of standing armies and reinforced the view that a militia composed of an armed citizenry was the best way to guarantee both security and liberty.

James Madison, one of the principle architect’s of the second amendment (Bill of Rights), viewed it as protecting the arms of the population at large. In fact many of America’s farmers of the constitution believed that and on many occasions stated that the right to gun ownership is a right of the “people”.

James Madison and other the framers of the constitution as well as other founders of this great nation of ours have made several statements that concur with the 2nd amendment being a protection of individual gun rights:

That should be more than enough to convince anyone that the “Right to keep and bear arms” is a protected individual right.

The individual right to gun ownership was also expressed by Supreme Court justices in the mid 1800’s. In 1833 Justice Joseph Story wrote in his Commentaries on the Constitution that the right to keep and bear arms provided a “strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers”. Chief Justice Roger Taney in Dred Scott v. Sandford (1857) listed the right to own and carry arms as one of the rights of citizenship.

In Heller v. DC case Justice Alito questioned attorneys representing WDC wondering how the DC gun ban could survive any standard of judicial review, since they ban most guns commonly used for self-defense. This subject was also brought up in the1939 Supreme Court case United States v. Miller where Justice James C. McReynolds writing for the court talked about a class of “ordinary weapons”.

DC still is in violation of the Supreme Court’s ruling continuing to ban semiautomatic handguns.

Unless I am totally missing something here, Americans overwhelmingly choose semi-automatic handguns as the predominate weapon of choice for self-defense followed by millions of Americans owning semi-automatic rifles (as well as shotguns). The semi-automatic class of weapons certainly falls under the “common use” question brought up by Justice Alito and “ordinary weapons” brought up by Justice McReynolds.

The Heller vs. DC ruling however is narrow in scope pertaining to self-defense specifically in the home.

That takes care of the “Keep” part of the 2nd amendment (To keep a firearm in the home) but what about the word “bear” arms in the 2nd amendment?

We shouldn’t need any court to tell us what the meaning of the word “bear” is as it pertains to “bear arms”, but then again we didn’t need a court to tell us what the second amendment meant either but we obviously did.

To “Bear” means to “carry”, and “carry” is what Supreme Court Chief Justice Roger Taney said in Dred Scott v. Sandford…The right to own and carry arms is one of the rights of citizenship. --(underline added)

I think the burden of proof that the right to own and carry a gun as a protected right under the constitution has been historically, traditionally, and legally met. And the purposes of the original intent of the 2nd amendment is still relevant today… we still have a need to protect ourselves from criminals don’t we? We still have enemies who wish to kill us don’t we (terrorists and foreign armies)? Governments are still inherently anti-individual liberty aren’t they? So really nothing has changed in that regard.

Remember what Thomas Jefferson wrote in a letter to William Johnson, June 12, 1823 (The Complete Jefferson, p. 322)

"On every question of construction (of the Constitution) let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed."

I want to relate this story to you by Dave Kopel one of the lawyers involved in the Supreme Court’s case Heller v. DC, I think folks should take to heart:

[After leaving the court]- As I headed to the airport in the afternoon, my talkative cab driver asked what I had been doing in Washington. He was an immigrant from Eritrea, an east African nation that used to be part of Ethiopia. Before Eritrea won its independence, it was under the rule of the genocidal tyrant Mengistu, whom the cab driver described as an African Hitler. Yet the cabbie’s tribe, the Afars, had always been left alone by the government, he said, because everyone in the tribe had a rifle, and carried it wherever he went.

The cab driver was disgusted with the D.C. law banning handguns and self-defense in the home. He told me about his friend, an Ethiopian immigrant, who was a landlord. One day, the police raided a tenant’s apartment, suspecting the tenant was involved with drugs. The police also raided the landlord’s home, and found no drugs, but did find a gun that the landlord kept for self-defense.

For a year and a half, the landlord was dragged through the D.C. courts until, finally, the prayers of his cab driver friend were answered: a kind-hearted judge put the landlord on probation, instead of sending him to jail.

“The American Constitution is the greatest in the world,” the cabbie affirmed. “Every country should use it. The one thing that every American can give to his children and grandchildren is the American Constitution.”

Two centuries separate James Madison from the Eritrean cab driver. Yet the two men are united in their passionate love of America’s constitutional liberty.

Dave Kopel’s full story can be seen here:
Ringside at the Supreme Court

So, unless you are an enemy to the constitution of the United States of America there is nothing to discuss. If you are an enemy to the constitution you should be rebuffed.

Everyone has a right to their own opinion and for those who wish to trade in their personal rights for some measure of imaginary piece of mind that’s fine as long as they don’t infringe upon my right to own and carry a gun.

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The law of tyranny:

1. Any power that can be abused will be abused
2. Abuse always expands to fill the limits of resistance to it.
3. If people don't resist the abuses of others, they will have no one to resist the abuses of themselves, and tyranny will prevail.


Welcome to the Socialist States of Amerika . Coming soon Jan 20th 2009!

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darrianation

By EILEEN SULLIVAN and ELLIOT SPAGAT, Associated Press Writers Eileen Sullivan And Elliot Spagat, Associated Press Writers 25 mins ago

WASHINGTON – Barack Obama's aunt, a Kenyan woman who has been quietly living in public housing in Boston, is in the United States illegally after an immigration judge rejected her request for asylum four years ago, The Associated Press has learned.

Zeituni Onyango (zay-TUHN on-YANG-oh), referred to as "Aunti Zeituni" in Obama's memoir, was instructed to leave the United States by a U.S. immigration judge who denied her asylum request, a person familiar with the matter told the AP late Friday. This person spoke on condition of anonymity because no one was authorized to discuss Onyango's case.

Information about the deportation case was disclosed and confirmed by two separate sources, one of them a federal law enforcement official. The information they made available is known to officials in the federal government, but the AP could not establish whether anyone at a political level in the Bush administration or in the McCain campaign had been involved in its release.

Onyango's refusal to leave the country would represent an administrative, noncriminal violation of immigration law, meaning such cases are handled outside the criminal court system. Estimates vary, but many experts believe there are more than 10 million such immigrants in the U.S.

The AP could not immediately reach Onyango, 56, for comment. When a reporter went to her home Friday night, no one answered the door. A neighbor said she was often not home on the weekend. Onyango did not immediately return telephone and written messages left at her home. It was unclear why her request for asylum was rejected in 2004.

The Obama campaign declined comment late Friday night.

Onyango is not a relative whom Obama has discussed in campaign appearances and, unlike Obama's father and grandmother, is not someone who has been part of the public discussion about his personal life.

A spokeswoman for U.S. Immigrations and Customs Enforcement, Kelly Nantel, said the government does not comment on an individual's citizenship status or immigration case.

Onyango's case — coming to light just days before the presidential election — led to an unusual nationwide directive within Immigrations and Customs Enforcement requiring that any deportations before Tuesday's election be approved at least at the level of the agency's regional directors, the U.S. law enforcement official told the AP.

The unusual directive suggests that the administration is sensitive to the political implications of Onyango's case coming to light so close to the election.

The East African nation has been fractured in violence in recent years, including a period of two months of bloodshed after December 2007 that killed 1,500 people.

The disclosure about Onyango came just one day after Obama's presidential campaign confirmed to the Times of London that Onyango, who has lived quietly in public housing in South Boston for five years, was Obama's half aunt on his father's side.

It was not immediately clear how Onyango might have qualified for public housing with a standing deportation order.

AP: Obama aunt from Kenya living illegally in US - Yahoo! News

No wonder Barrack Obama wants to grant millions of illegals Citizenship.

See article: Newsmax.com – Obama Wants 12 Million Illegals to Get Citizenship

__________________
The law of tyranny:

1. Any power that can be abused will be abused
2. Abuse always expands to fill the limits of resistance to it.
3. If people don't resist the abuses of others, they will have no one to resist the abuses of themselves, and tyranny will prevail.


Welcome to the Socialist States of Amerika . Coming soon Jan 20th 2009!

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Ghost

fully aware of that, it was a fairly large news story over here.

We dont have much in the way of gun crime though and have no requirement for guns. Nor should you.
Its safe here. You might get in a fist fight at most.

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There are no second chances.

“Anyone can give up, it's the easiest thing in the world to do. But to hold it together when everyone else would understand if you fell apart, that's true strength.”

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Ghost

We dont live at the whim of our leaders, we have something called the house of lords and a queen.
The queen has control of the armed forces and can order them to dissolve the government.
On top of that we have the house of lords.
For new bills to become law they have to pass through the house of lords as well, which is made up of the nobility of the UK.
This keeps the government in check.
Its called being civilized and not having to carry guns incase you get a bad set of politicians.
We didnt make through the last 1000 years on whims.

__________________
There are no second chances.

“Anyone can give up, it's the easiest thing in the world to do. But to hold it together when everyone else would understand if you fell apart, that's true strength.”

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