Toudiyama

This is not martial arts it's martial way, mental aspect has become a big part of that at least for japanese Budo arts
Doo for gung fu or pentjak silat for that matter

San shou has become a way to test your gung fu skills in the kwoons you talk about Sage, it isn't seen as a seperate art( but rarely anything is seen as seperate)
Dono if you have ever seen the BBC docu series Way of the Warrior, but there you see that gung fu starts out in a karate like stile and then advance to Hsing I then Ba qua to end at Tai chi
San Shou is an excersice made into an entire art
It's like training someone to compete in noncontact karate, it will suffice to only train in 4 or 5 techniques (in noncontact karate that would be backfist, reverse punch front and roundhousekick)

doubleouch

I think the real problem is not the art or the artist, but the training methods. Take any of those far out kung fu styles and apply some modern day proven training methods to them and they will evolve into something that works with its own flavor. Work techniques against progressive resistance with timing and you will transform any bullcrap art into something that works fairly quickly. What will happen is the tecchniques that don't work will be dropped in favor of those that do. Training methods that don't seem to produce any results will be dropped in favor of those that do.
What keeps these crapy arts around is our refusal to question the validity of what our teachers give us. We assume that because they have more experience than us that they must know best. Arts that stress trying it out and testing it yourself to see if it works seem to produce the best results. It is about performance! You can work on the spiritual side and self perfection etc. just as well with techniques that work as with the fancy spiritual, internal, essoteric or whatever you may call it arts. In fact I think not blindly following the teachings of some guru is probably healthier. Finding the path for yourself. Testing and trying your own techniques under the guidance of a coach or trainer that helps you to self discovery rather than blind copying is real spiritual growth.

Great Sage

doubleouch,

While I agree with your optimistic idea, I think one would be better served to learn something functional from the start. A person would fair better to spend time perfecting their jab than to try and make a reverse punch work for them. Consider that if you spend 10 years trying to make Hungar Kung-fu a street-efficient art, you may succeed but the gain would be minimal compared to how much you would gain in 10 years of boxing.

__________________
The sage experiences without abstraction,
And accomplishes without action;
He accepts the ebb and flow of things,
Nurtures them, but does not own them,
And lives, but does not dwell.

ahavat

Well, the question is more if you want to train an art, or if you want to become a mega-bad-ass-super-streetfighter. As it is mentioned here, people do not necesseraly train to become streetfighters, but do it for the art. Of course, if I want to train 100% for the street you can elminiate almost all the classical arts, and choose among few styles which offer simplicity and realistic combat training.

But can I tell a Capoeira-practitioner who can jump and do acrobatic tricks I can only dream of that his/hers training is crap? What if you are into it for the physical excersice? Interest in classical arts? Interested in the beauty of an artistic kung-fu style form?

The problem in my eyes is rather that some artistic styles claim to be effective on the street, and that is of course crap. But as long as you train with realistic goals and a realistic view of your fighting capabilites, I find nothing wrong with classical styles, or acrobatic styles, as long as the instructors don't stand there saying that you can use this for effective self-defence.

doubleouch

Sage,
I agree with you. Why not start with something functional from the start. My point is that all arts would be fairly functional in a short time with the right training methods. If you are training for anything other than functional performance then don't call it martial art. Call it something else! Giving it the same title as arts that do train for functionality just confuses the issue.

ahavat

Well, in my eyes, an art is exactly that, an art. Not necesseraly something 100% focused to be effective, but something that includes more than just pure fighting.

Hence the term mixed martial arts, since it borrows a little from each art, combining the best each art has to offer towards streetfighting or NHB-contests.

In my eyes a martial art is not something purely intended for streetfighting, i.e. Tai Chi is as much a martial art as Wing Chun. Since the styles people here often bash are classical arts, I think that a discussion about what defines a martial art could be interesting. I believe that a style aimed at pure self-defence is more described as a combat system, and not an art.

doubleouch

I'm not talking about streetfighting. I'm talking about performance. It is a little like a football player saying "well I can't play football well, but we stress windsprints and pushups." If you aren't training for performance then you aren't training martial arts. You may be training dance that looks vaguely like fighting, or health exercise based on the movements of martial arts, but you aren't training martial arts. It is like going to the gym every day and riding the exercise bike and saying that you are a bike racer! No you are not. In order to be a bike racer you have to race! In order to be a martial artist you have to fight! Not only that you have to revolve your training around fighting well. Otherwise you are not training martial arts!

MrPoopy

Most Judoka don't even recognize Judo as a martial art. I think everyone pretty much agrees that it's a sport.

Jared can't really throw off on Judo that much, considering he got handled by some Judo yellow belts.

__________________
MrPoopy

Szczepankiewicz

Yeah, I heard he got spanked. Literally.

brokenelbow

Just a note, in karate a reverse punch is called gyaku zuki and is similar in execution to a right cross. The technic that you refer to as a reverse punch has little to do with the gyaku zuki or the oi zuki mechanics and is just one of many ways to chamber the fist and is handy for sucker punching to the solar plexus. Also, the Kizami zuki, aka the jab, is also practiced especially by karate schools that spar.

ryanhall

Why would you ever try a sucker punch anywhere other than the head or throat region? Solar plexus...

__________________
"Ray, when someone asks you if you're a god, you say YES!"

brokenelbow

Why would you restrict your cheap shots to just the head and throat region?

ryanhall

Because there's no reason to waste the element of surprise on a secondary target that is less likely to get the job done against a formidable assailant. The chin, nose, throat, jaw, eyes, and temple are excellent targets. Everything else is secondary. If you're not justitied hitting those, then why are you fighting in the first place? The only other ones I would try are a push kick to the knee of a very tall person or a vertical kick to the groin of someone standing square to me. Everything else stays upstairs. Body shots are not really worth your time outside the ring.

__________________
"Ray, when someone asks you if you're a god, you say YES!"

brokenelbow

And if my hands are lower than his and the most available targets are below his hands? I usually hold my drink at about the same level as my SP when standing in a bar or at a party. Rarely do I have my hands up in a peek-a-boo guard when I'm just hanging out.

I'm not assuming a finish from the move just something to possibly give me an advantage and a chance to deliver the second, third and fourth strikes, or move to his side or back and go for a takedown. It's options from simple techniques. I like the Tony Blaur saying of closest weapon to closest target.

Toudiyama

I'm in the fight because the other attacks me
Have you ever heard of "reasonable force"? poking someones eyes isn't seen as reasonable force in most cases and in most countries
Also if a heavier person hit th throat the consequence might be severe
As a last remark I like to sat that MAs are expected to have better control in such situations and NOT use any damaging technique