RobertG

Ugh...answer the question--why don't you just do sambo or greco-roman wrestling?

What mass bowing ceremony are you talking about? I was at a national tournament earlier this year and there was no mass bowing. I lounged around for most of the day, waited till they called my name, bowed to the guy I fought, had my match, bowed again, walked off the mat. Where was the kamiza? There was no picture of Kano anywhere to be seen. Everyone bowed to their opponent. That's it. I don't know how you run your tournaments in Minnesota, but they don't do that in Texas.

And yes, the mat has spirits. You had better bow to it or the spirits will kill you.

Dude, just go do sambo if you don't like judo rituals. End of story. Its practically the same frigging fighting style. No one is stopping you from doing sambo. Its a free country. 99.9% of judo people could care less about bowing. You and you're douchey instructor and his family and their Islamic fundamentalist students are the only ones who care. Personally if bowing means that Islamic (and Christian) fundamentalists can't do judo, fine by me. Those people are all crazy anyway. I don't want to fight a crazy person. The sort of people who bomb abortion clinics and buses and planes and whatever else are not the sort of people that ought to be learning to fight anyway.

So, **** off and do sambo. End of story. You have no argument. Fine Judo is a big Shinto cult. You don't have to do it. No one is forcing you to do judo. There are two nearly identical sports--one is a Shinto cult (according to you and your derranged buddies) and the other is not. So why not just do the one that isn't a derranged cult? ****, its so goddamned simple you ****ing douchebag.

Toudiyama[NL]

Simple Robert
Everybody should BOW to the wishes of the Chrstian fundementalist/ born again christians
Why should they change their wishes even if the majoriity doesn't agree with them, this isn't a democracy is it? oops it is
Well religion isn't and even though the majority doesn't considder it religious, that doesn't matter to them
Because te religious fanatics considder it this way they think that thee majoruty shouldn't rule
So actually Religious Fanatics are anti democratic and want to enforce their vision upon us

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Lizard

Bow to the mat kevin, bow to kano's picture. As long as you don't actualy believe then there is nothing wrong with it right? If I do a shinto ceremony it doesn't make me shinto so what's the harm? Is your faith really so weak that it will be destroyed by bowing to a mat?

Seriously just go through the bowing and rituals but just don't believe in them.

One time I went to a funeral and had to sit in a church and listen to a priest talking about religious things, I didn't agree with them because I am atheist but I knew there was no real harm in listening as long as I kept my faith.

So in conclusion:

I sit through what I think is a religious ceremony and keep quiet and respect their beliefs. I certainly don't say somehing like "It's not fair, muslims can't go to christian funerals because it's not their religion." Bull crap, I would have gone there even if I had been a muslim.

Compare this to your reaction to what you see as a religious ceremony. I hope you are ashamed by your stupidity.

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Enemies Strengthen,
Allies weaken.

kevin green

Not being forced to bow to the mat IS a direct result of John Holm"s and his wife Mariko Akiyama's Federal lawsuit. IT sounds like you had a good time! Pretty soon bowing to your opponent will be voluntary also. Enjoy the benefits of their sacrafice and hard work. It seems you are confusing the issue on purpose Robert you have backslided and need more de-programming. Where have you seen the Graven image of Kano. Who by the way we think was a very great man. and have you ever bowed to it? and why did you bow to it? For no specific reason like Mr. Dalein states in his article. He just doesn't understand why.
These article were (maybe) written as a direct response to the lawsuit against bowing to inanimate objects.
Not once have they refused to bow to their opponents!

Plus the bowing crap is just a symptom it is not the disease.It is a control method used to keep the status quo. And the status quo is that the U.S. did not even place in the last Olympics in Judo. Just as it is used as a control method it is being turned back against them to break the monopoly of power mad moonie types and to open the sport up to alot more people.
I like to do my sunday morning worshipping in a fishing boat or maybe a duck blind. I like to say that maybe the people that go to church must feel they need to.
!)

kevin green

STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES =FOREST GUMP


TRY TO HOLD THIS THOUGHT" IT'S ABOUT FREEDOM FROM RELIGION" (in judo tournaments)

RobertG

Once again, there is no religion at judo tournaments. Lets examine how it works, k?

You weigh in and register in the morning usually. Then you sit around mostly bored for hours while the kids fight, attempting to stay warm and loose. Then you division is called. You walk up to the outside of the mat and bow to nothing or no one in particular. Since these things are usually held in gymnasiums, there might be, oh, a basketball hoop on the opposite wall if anything. No shrine. No picture of Kano. Then you walk up and bow to your opponent. Then you fight. Then you get up and bow to your opponent and usually shake hands. Then you walk off the mat and again bow to the basketball hoop. And that is it. So where exactly is the religion in that????

Are you telling me basketball hoops are Shinto now?

And talk about backtracking...you already admitted that you'd bow in culturally appropriate circumstances (e.g. to Dan Inosanto at a JKD seminar). Well a judo tournament is a culturally appopriate circumstance to bow. Period. And don't you have a frigging job man? I have way too much time on my hands, but I have an excuse, I'm a student. A guy your age needs to have priorities besides trying to argue with someone of superior intelligence all day long.

RobertG

Christian Judo

There you go Kevin. You can go play judo with your Christian brothers and leave the rest of us alone so we can be Shinto in peace.

kevin green

You bow to nothing? That means you are less than nothing.
You said before that you had a P.H.D. So don't be pointing fingers.Try to concentrate. Lying moonie bootlicking leg humper.
Squeal like a pig eveytime you bow to nothingness. You apologetic shinto suck-up. Who are you to tell anybody what to do and who are you to give orders .You reek of dishonest suckupism .Bow Wow! Maybe if you didn't look everywhere but within yourself you might find some answers but your suckupism
clouds your mind like a turd stuck sideways in the colon of your
diseased infected mind.

kevin green

I might bow back to keep him from being embarrased But it would be from choice. I have bowed at Judo contests and felt like an idiot doing it. What does bowing have to do with Judo anyway. Why are you so threatened by voluntary bowing?It is because you have ulterior motives that you won't admit to because you enjoy the brown-nosing. You are one of the suckup types that expect everyone else to be like you.AND THAT IS ENDING SOON.NADA NOMORE ZIP.YOU ARE BEING EXPOSED
FOR WHAT YOU ARE.AN UNCONCIOUS SHINTO JUDO CULT MOONIE AND ARE TOO EMBARRASSED TO ADMIT IT.

Toudiyama[NL]

It's no use everytime everyone tries to give Kevin new arguments and everytime he keeps repeating the same non argument
Like a broken record over and over and over again

whenever someone give an argument against it and you don't have a proper reply you talk about being forced
For your belts you are told you HAVE to do certain techniques, you don't have any trouble with that even though they force you to do so, there is nothing voluntary about it you must do it if you want the belt

Now in reply to this you will come up with Shinto again

You bow FOR god (submission), in Judo you bow TO (respect) not FOR huge difference
I don't bow for anyone or anything no human and certainly no fictional God but I bow TO the dojo, TO the teacher and TO my trainingspartner/opponent

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kevin green

Toudiyama are you a kid or what ?Do you play Judo?Please tell us about yourself.


I was watching television the other night And B.B.King and Muhamad Ali were in Zaire Africa,before the Ali-George Foreman fight And they were discussing the differances between traditional African music and american(negro I suppose) music.
And Muhamad Ali said something that made alot of sense.He told B.B.King that they should tell the Africans "WE DON'T HATE YOU, AND WERE NOT MAD AT YOU ,IT'S JUST THAT WE WANT TO BE INDEPENDENT NOW'! And I thought thats exactly how the American Judo people should feel.That we love the sport we just need it to fit our society and our customs.Its not personal. We just need more people into the sport to be able to be competitive. New ideas ,fresh insights, American can-do. We want to grow the sport not let it die a lingering death.Wev'e got like 40,000 people in Judo in the U.S. World wide Judo is the #2 organized sport, soccer is#1. Judos a dying sport in America but people are fighting to change that.

Toudiyama[NL]

Dutch, about 20 years older than you, did play Judo, dad's a judoteacher, we are atheist any god is nonsense to us
The only reason for my dad to go to church was during the war they would get soup there

Tell me one thing Kevin if a god excisted why wouldn't it manifset itself in different ways to different people, take hinduism for instance, they have many gods but still you hear the talk about god, for them all these gods are just different manifestations of the one god
Also, I take it you think the earth is around 6000 years old, why were the jewish people the only one that could trace back their origens to adam and eve, from which son of them did the native americans ( nort and south) come or the chinese and why are they so different, if they changed so much why has it stopped thousands of years ago?
Why were the semites the only ones?
And if they aren't related where did they come from?
Why if the 1st testament tells us there will be 2 more profets don't the cristians recognize Mohamed as a profet
Why don't we know anything between his teens and his last years?
Why do you call a book written by man the word of god?
Why do you think god doesn't know you aren't bowing for shinto gods but only because it is demanded in the sport?

You probably call the Bible a book of answers, to me it's a book of questions and contradictions

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kevin green

Everything actually can be explained chemically.And this can be expressed by mathematical formula.

Why do you defend forced bowing to inanimate objects?

kevin green

Plus God meant the Bible to be full of questions and contradictions so you would develop your conciousness.

Toudiyama[NL]

well actually science won't aghree with you on that, no freaking way can these changes occur in 6000 years

why would you take your hat of during a funeral? to show respect, I respect that when I enter a dojo I have to adhere to its rules, that's what the bowing sez
I respect the dead founder or all he has done and that's what is sez when I bow to his picture
I respect the fact that I'm gonna engage in potentially dangerous techniques and that I will be carefull, that's what is sez when I bow to my trainingspartner
I support forced bowing because if I show respect I expect the others to do the same

Not even someone deeply into Shinto would consider these much different

You blame it for the bad results of the US in Judo, Anton Geesink considered the tatami also"sacred, he sent his people offbecause that was not the way to behave
Even though he bows to inanimate objects he became both Olympic and world champion
This is something unique to the US in the most of the EU Judoka considered it to stupid for words when we heard of this courtcase
(although they did have names for your trainer and his daughter)

Where in it written that GOD meant the Bible that way?
and why are these contradictions I speak of all about the same happenings like the"resurection" 4 writers 4 different stories

darn off to bed 00:30 already

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